Kinfolk

Episode 2: "Where Do We Go From Here?" with Dr. D.Z. Cofield

September 01, 2020 Patrick Ngwolo Season 1 Episode 2
Kinfolk
Episode 2: "Where Do We Go From Here?" with Dr. D.Z. Cofield
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we are sitting down with activist and pastor, Dr. D.Z. Cofield.  Born in Bed-Stuy, NY, Pastor Cofield shares his story of perseverance through family trials, his college education, and seminary. This journey led him to become an NAACP leader, establish an education center, and pastor of Good Hope Missionary Baptist Church for over 26 years. We talk to Pastor Cofield about race relations in the U.S. and ask him, "Where do we go from here?" and it's no surprise that education and is a huge part of his answer.

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P.T. Ngwolo:

Right man. I'm with DZ. Cofield pastor of good hope, father, husband, community activists. Uh, my preaching hero, man, learned everything I know about preaching to learn from him. Uh, man, everything about shoot man, fathering and pastoring and man life, uh, bird, my father, uh, man, I love this man. And uh, but we brought him on because, uh, he's got a powerful ministry, uh, in the city and in the nation. And uh, beyond the pulpit, he, uh, has a reach in our community, uh, former NAACP head here and man, just one of the, uh, great preaching and intellectual minds of our generation. And so man, uh, for, we get into man, what we came to talk about, which is, uh, where do we go from here past the Coalfield man, introduce yourself and say hello to our audience. Well, first of all, let me say hello to everybody.

D.Z. Cofield:

I'm DZ Cofield. I'm a native new Yorker. I've been in Houston pastoring, the good hope church for 26 years and a former adjunct teacher at Dallas, theological seminary and college of biblical studies, uh, run a nonprofit as well called hope for families. Uh, we have a state licensed childcare center and basically, uh, looking at how we can identify needs in our community and be a conduit to facilitate change both on the practical side, as well as on the policy side and just, you know, fighting the good fight or for our people, man, just trying to help people fulfill their God given potential. So just enjoying the journey, man, and I'm honored to be with you, man. Thank you. Uh, man. So tell us, you grew up in Brooklyn and tell us a little bit about, I've never asked you some of these questions, so I'm, I'm personally curious about them and tell us about growing up in Brooklyn, sixties and seventies.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so, um, I was born in 1961 actually, uh, was born in Brooklyn in Bed-Stuy and then grew up between Bedstein and the lower East side of Manhattan. Uh, the Jacob Riis housing projects and in alphabet city, 10th street and Avenue D right off of FDR drive. And so, um, you know, it was really, really blessed, man. I mean, you know, one had a mother and father in the home, my father actually was a police officer at the time. And so that was, that was, uh, a whole, you know, book in and of itself, man, just, just listening and, and talking to him. And as I got older hearing stories about him on the police force, he was on the police force at a very, very, uh, critical time in the sixties. Uh, when you had the semi Symbionese liberation army and uh, and the black liberation army and the Panthers, um, he was on the job when police officers were being gunned down and he was a police officer. And I remember him telling me, you know, he was like, he was down with the brothers, he understood, you know, what was going on. He saw the racism, uh, so much so that when I told him I wanted to be a police officer, he was like, no, you can't. Uh, so he was in YPD yeah, he was in YPD. He worked a transit, he worked as a beat cop and then he worked undercover narcotics as well. So he was, he was like knee deep in it, man, for real, for real. And um, and so, you know, just having talked to him and, and watched him, um, and then he gave his life to the Lord and, you know, wasn't long after that, probably within a year or so. I gave my life to the Lord and, um, you know, just, just watched him, uh, you know, do his thing. Uh, probably the biggest influences in my life other than of course my mother and father were my maternal grandparents and they lived in Brooklyn. That's the house that I was born in. And so that was, you know, the weekend trick. I mean, we was always over there seeing them and spending time with them and, you know, the unconditional love man that you get from, you know, grandparents, their encouragement, their support, um, you know, I wouldn't be who I am today without that man. So powerful part of my life, man. That's awesome. Uh, so what made you leave Brooklyn, man? It's just seems, you know, I'm from the South. So it seems like New York has stayed in new Yorkers. What made you leave? Uh, New York and say, man, I'm, I'm headed down the swamp. Yeah. So my family actually in middle school, uh, moved to South Jersey. My father's from Alabama originally. And so he grew up farming. Uh, you know, he would always tell me, you know, he, he understood the difference between G and high, which is, you know, commands that you give to the mule and pick cotton and all of those things. And so he decided he wanted to leave the city and wanted to buy some land. So he bought like 10 acres of land. Uh, he and my mother and we moved to South Jersey and man, you know, it was like green acres, man, you know, South Jersey. No, no South Jersey is like the South. I mean, South Jersey is, is rural. Uh, one of the largest farming, uh, agricultural producers, um, much of the East coast fresh produce comes out of South Jersey. Yeah. And so, uh, that was like a crazy part of my life because I, I was born in the city, grew up in the city, you know, understood all of that mass transit and, and everything. And then, you know, you move to South Jersey and if you don't have a car, you better have a bicycle. You're going to do a whole lot of walking. And so that was, uh, a major shift. So I mean, I, I learned how to, you know, pitch hay and, and ride horses and slop hogs and all of that stuff, man, uh, in that five year, six year period, uh, from middle school through high school. So South Jersey is, is the closest metropolitan area to South Jersey Philadelphia. And I have a lot of family in Philadelphia proper. And if we wanted to do something in New York, if you wanted to go shopping, he was going to buy some stuff. You would, you know, go down to orchard street. Right. And, and you go down and, you know, negotiate, uh, you know, with the proprietors on clothing and things like that. Well, if you wanted to go shopping and you were in South Jersey, you know, we catch the bus, a New Jersey transit and we go to downtown Philly. And so that's how I reconnected with Philly and a lot of family members there. So for me to go to Swarthmore was, uh, not a big stretch because you know, so close to Philadelphia and I wanted to be in a major metropolitan area. Uh, so I wasn't looking at staying in the state of New Jersey or anything like that. Like you, I didn't know the distinctives between North Jersey and South Jersey. And so it wasn't until I got to South Jersey and South Jersey was one of the Northern havens of the KKK and, you know, a lot of prejudice, not just racially in terms of black and white, but a lot of ethnic, uh, issues in terms of Italians and Jews and Irish and, and, and that whole thing. So just a lot of dynamics going on, man, in that, in that community, man. So, so you get to swath more, uh, I can imagine school and, uh, uh, we're looking at the late seventies, early eighties. Uh, yeah. I graduated from high school, 79 and, uh, went to Swarthmore in the spring. I was in the class of 83, so yeah. And, uh, men, tell me about what it's like in Swarthmore. I imagine you're one of the only brothers as Moore at the time. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I'll tell you it was tough, man. Even more than being one of a few African American students there. Um, I think we were probably at like 3%, uh, African American students. Um, but the other challenge was, man, I just came to Christ and in the spring of 79, I made really dedicated my life to the Lord. And so when I get on this campus, man, I'm like one of a few brothers and then I'm like super saved. Legalistically,

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean? The whole nine yards and coming on a college campus man and being super

Speaker 1:

Legalistic is probably not the best way to ingratiate yourself in the arts.

Speaker 2:

So I'm like, man, I got Bible in hand. I'm like, boom. You know what I mean? I'm Hey man, nah, man, I'll party. I ain't going to no parties, man. What? Nah, man, I love Jesus. You know, and I'm getting up man on, on, on Sunday morning, man, other folk, man of bleary, I'm just making it to brunch. And I'm coming back from church. You don't mean I was, I mean I was committed, man. Brother was sold out. Uh, I remember, uh, I got a letter

Speaker 1:

Job on campus work study and yeah,

Speaker 2:

Man, I'm working and I literally, uh, opened a bank account, a savings account to put my title

Speaker 1:

Dives in, uh, until

Speaker 2:

I went back home for Thanksgiving. I mean, yeah man, dude, I was working it for real man. Uh, my only outlet was the gospel choir

Speaker 1:

On campus. There were really two organizations, a black student association and the gospel choir. And uh, there were no fraternities, no sororities. Uh, there was no black life like that. I mean none. Um, what really saved me as Swarthmore quite honestly, because I was also the first person in my family to go to college. So to go to college on both sides on both sides. And so nobody could give me any counsel or advice. Um, um, I'm super saved. I'm, legalistics, I'm a new Christian and just all of this stuff, man. It is all kind of coming together. Uh, what, what saved me was the housekeepers and the cook staff at Swarthmore because they were all from Chester, Pennsylvania and Chester, uh, Delaware County at the time, I think was the second or third richest County in the United States. Chester was one of the three poorest cities for his size in the United States. So you had this disparity between this rich County, old mainline Philadelphia money. And then you had this really, really poor city and the place you could work, if you were a teenager, there was a KFC and a McDonald's. That was it. And so, you know, drug sales of course rampant and a lot of stuff going on in the community. But those people man helped save me because they invited me to their church. And then I started hanging out with them. I met a family, uh, Reverend and, and mrs. Uh, avant. And I went to their church. He was an associate minister there ended up, uh, getting called to pastor a church later on, but we developed a lifetime, uh, relationship. And so that, that was really my saving grace man to get around some people who weren't talking about papers and those kinds of things. But it was an interesting time, man, because Walkman was always a very, uh, uh, uh, not only is it a liberal arts school, but it's a very liberal school in terms of his political ideology, which again, didn't bode well for me as a new Christian and I was basically like a fundamentalist man. I mean, I was, you know, I was posting, I was rocking it for real man. So it was a different, different vibe. Yeah. I always had a and a heart, not only for the church, but for the community, your local and your state community. And, and, and tell me any of those influences come from, uh, some of your experiences as Swarthmore, uh, actually proceeding that. Um, my, I remember my mom and dad were involved in the local NAACP when I was in middle school and in high school and, and actually that's how my father ended up attending church crazy enough and giving his life to the Lord because he was recruiting members for the local NAACP and he had to go and he would go and give speeches at churches, you know, soliciting members. And he was there to sign people up and set their man in the church man and, and heard the gospel and, and, you know, gave his life to the Lord man rededicate his life to the Lord. And so it was, it was really, uh, that example that I saw in my mother and father who were always concerned, who would open up their home to help people and things like that. Um, that was, that was really a driving point. And then in college, um, we had some incidences and things that happened in the early eighties that challenged us to take a stand, uh, that challenged us. And by that time I was president of a gospel choir. And like I said, they were only two black organizations on campus. And really only one that was a student run, uh, from the perspective of, you know, we didn't even have a, a counselor, uh, on campus. We didn't have a faculty. It was just, it was just us. Yeah. It was just us. And, um, it, but it was a tremendous, uh, learning time for me. Um, and then I think the other thing that happened was in my senior year, what would have been my senior year, uh, my junior year, I was playing ball and I was captain of the basketball team and my mother and father split up and I didn't know what was happening. I knew something was happening to me emotionally didn't know what it was. Um, discovered later on some of the things that have happened, both my mother and father deceased now. Um, but I discovered, uh, later on the abusiveness and the relationship I've, I remember I had to quit the basketball team in the middle of the season and never could tell the coach or my teammates, what the deal was, because I really didn't know. I just know my mother pleaded with me not to go back and we had like a Christmas tournament and some other stuff. And I mean, she like begged me not to go back. And I'm like, what do you mean? I gotta go back. And, and so I ended up staying and then I found out later on, I left of course to go back for the spring semester. But, um, just, just a lot of, uh, a lot of craziness, but that's where it all came from, man. Just, just living life and a concern about people. I'll tell you. What's interesting. Uh, PT, somebody said to me, they said, man, what, what kind of reading have you done to develop the heart that you have for the community? You know? And they, you know, it started, you know, you know, man, have you read Cohen? You know, did you read, you know, uh, you know, Schlei marker, you know, you know, uh, all right, right. Neighbor, you know, like what did you read? And I was like, Jesus, you know, and, and the dude was like, what do you mean, Jesus? I was like the Bible. And he was like, well, I mean, but I know you're evangelical. I was like, yeah, but I read the Bible like Jesus, Matthew 25, you know, you just like, you're supposed to love people. Like, you know,

Speaker 2:

Right. It's right there. You're right, right. It's like, man, just read the red letter, babe. Just read the red letter, you know, it's so it's, it's really kind of interesting to me, but that's really,

Speaker 1:

Um, where my heart for the community came from, man, just on a, on a sociological side, seeing my mom and dad and the work that they did. Uh, and then seeing people, man hurting. Um, I worked in a former life as a probation officer, juvenile probation officer saw a lot of the disparities, uh, in education, in the criminal injustice system. And so all of those things kinda just folded in man. What made you or pushed you or propelled you to come South and go to Dallas? Theological? Yeah. So I left school. I was, I was in the class of 83 and I think this will encourage somebody, man. I was in the class of 83 and when my mother and father split up, I dropped out of school. Um, I used to tell people, my mom and dad split up, my dad wouldn't pay for school. And so I had to drop out and in actuality, my dad never really paid for school. It really wasn't financial. When I looked back, it was really emotional and I was just emotionally, man, just wiped out. And uh, so I left school. Um, so, okay. So here's the crazy part. So I was going in the service. Oh wow. Oh, I wanted to, uh, be a chaplain and my dad was in the air force, but I was going to go in the Navy because I was too big to go in the air force. I think the weight limit for the air force for my size, my height was two 41. And to go into the Navy, it was two 62. And I was like two 65 or something like that. So I'm like, okay man, I can, I can lose weight. I can, I'm just going to go in the Navy. And I go in man. And the recruiter is like on me because I took my exam. And so I tested high enough to go into nuclear power. And I'm like, nah, man, I'm going to be a chaplain. He's like, no, you don't understand, dude. We don't have no brothers in nuclear power. I said, and you still don't. Cause I want to be a chaplain. And he's like, well, you can't even qualify for chaplain. Cause you don't have your degree. You gonna have to go to school and finish your undergrad and boom and boom, you can only go in as an assistant chaplain. And I was like, okay, I'll go in as assistant chaplain. And so I had had uh, some knee surgery, some other stuff. So I had to go get all of my medical records, man. Let's do drove me all over. I got all my medical records and everything. I go to weigh in. I'm two pounds overweight. And so they won't accept me until I lose two pounds. Now looking back, here's the crazy part. I mean, I think most of us who were adults, no, it's not hard to lose two pounds. Right. I mean, you know, he sweated out, right, right. One day don't eat and then go on to sauna. I mean you can lose waterway. Right. And I don't know why, man. It didn't hit me. I'm running around the block. I'm trying to do all this stuff, man. And I got this phone call from my dad and you know, I've only seen my dad cried just a couple of times in life. One was when his grandmother passed, who was like his mother, she raised him and maybe a couple of times where God was doing some things in his life. And he called me on the phone man. And he is just booming. And I'm like, Hey dad, what's wrong. And he's like, man, you can't go into service. And I'm like, okay, why not? Like I just got two pounds to lose and I'm done. I got all my paperwork and everything. He's like, God has something else for you to do. God has something else for you to do. And I'm like, okay, what? He's like, I don't know. He said, man, but just God, it's just this burden on me man. And he's crying, man. Like why he's telling me this and I'm going, ah, li I'm like, okay. And so I never went back. I never went back. I ended up moving to New York, moving back with my grandfather and June of July of 19, uh, 84, my grandfather passed away and you know, it was just a blessing. I was actually there with my grandmother to help her through that. And man, I, it, it, it, it took me, uh, my degree was conferred in 1989. So for somebody who's listening, I basically was on the 10 year plan. Like I was supposed to graduate in 83. Um, I didn't go back to Swarthmore because I really, I was ashamed. And the enemy had me thinking like I was like the only person ever to have dropped out of school. Right. I was the only person who, you know, didn't finish. And man, I just didn't want to go back. When my grandfather passed, uh, I got called actually to a church in Amityville, New York, out in long Island, Suffolk County. Um, my preaching gift was ahead of my pastoral maturity, right. So I get called to this church, small church. And I'm there serving man. And I really, I mean, I'm looking back, I really don't have a clue what I'm doing. I'm just, I'm just man preaching and them deacons, man. It just tear me up, man. I mean, they they're ripping me a new one. And, and I remember, and I got to the place where, because I was working, I was selling, uh, I was a communications consultant, which is a fancy way of saying I was selling beepers and pagers. Right. And so, uh, I'm selling beepers and pages to people, businessmen and everything. And God just really impressed upon me, man. And I got to go back to school. I got to get back to school. And so I went to the church and I told the leaders, I said, listen, I said, I'm going to go back and finish my undergrad. I'm real close. And I'm going to start taking some classes and I need you all. I may need you all to help me. I may need you to tee some Bible studies. You know, when I'm gone, if I have to take class like on a Wednesday night and they said, we're not teaching anything, that's what we hired you. And so I was like, Oh, I was like, okay. And so I jetted and, and made the decision that I was going to go back to Swarthmore because I was so close to graduating. And so man, I make this walk back up on this campus, man. And you know, it's, there's legacy money. There's old money there, man. I'm, I'm an affirmative action dude. Right? They just let me in the diversity here on campus. I understand it. And so I go into the registrar's office and I'm man, I'm terrified, man. Uh, cause I, the shame fear, it's just like all of this stuff, man, going on inside of me and I, I go to the campus, I go to the registrar's office, walk in, lady says, can I help you? I said, yes. You know, uh, tell them my name, tell them my, my classification. And I was in the class of 83 and you know, I want to come back. I want to finish my degree. Um, this was like 86. So I need to my transcript. I need to see exactly what I need to graduate and you know, who can I talk to about how to enroll in whatever have you. And so she goes, gets the registrar and the registrar comes out and she's like, Oh my God, how are you doing? So it was the person who was a registrar. If I'm not mistaken, I think they would be assistant registrar or had just worked there when I was a student. So she remembered me. So she's like, look, I looked at your transcript. All of your elective classes are done. I know she said, all of your required classes have done. You said, so you have to do is take some elective. You said, you know, she said, you'd have to talk though to your department chair because you know, we have a residential requirement. You have to spend the last two years on campus. Um, and see if they'll waive that and whatever, have you. So he's like, let me call him. So she called him, uh, Donald CaseWare. It was his name. She called him and I go over and I meet with him and he's like, man, it's great to see you. We small talk. He said, look, he said, man, you know, what's going on? I told him, man, I'm married with kids. You know, I'm trying not to come back and finish my degree. He said, man, no problem. He waived the two year requirement told me, Hey man, take classes wherever you can take them. So you don't have to spend the money. Uh, come back. If it's a three credit class, we'll have you write a paper for the fourth credit, bring us syllabus. We'll approve it. And then just write your senior paper and then you'll be done. And so that's what I did, man, for like two and a half years, man. I just started taking one class at a time. Cause I was working at night. No man, I got two kids and grind just, Oh dude, you're talking about a grind, man. I mean, you know, I tell people all the time, you know, I worked seven years between finishing undergrad and grad school man at Dallas and working nights, man, and going to school full time is a grind. And I was just making it happen, man. And taking a class here. Sometimes I could fit in two and I look back now, man, I just see God's favor. I remember it was a class on urban sociology that just blew me away. And, but I went in, got a copy of the syllabus. The class is full. So I got to get permission from the teacher to let me in the class. And she's like, there's no more room. And I said, ma'am. I said, listen, I'm um, you know, I'm here. I'm just trying to finish my degree. And I didn't even tell her the whole story. I'm like in the first sentence. And she said, you're coming back to finish your degree. I said, yes ma'am. She said, give me the paper. She said, anybody that wants to come back and finish their welcome in his class anytime. And, and that, that, and I learned not just the value of education, but I learned the value of community college education because you know, so many times of major universities, your first two years, you being taught by graduate assistants, right? You're not even being taught by the actual professors in, in that community college setting, man, those professors were unbelievable. So I ended up going to Penn state. Then I went to temple, took some classes there, family search sociology and all kinds of stuff, man. And a man just had a tremendous time. Then went back to Swarthmore, got my degree finished in 1989, turned in my paper. It was accepted. They say, Hey, you graduated your degree. Won't be confirmed until the spring of 1990. I moved to Dallas man in 1989. And so I was in school already before was conferred. Yeah. So, so here I am, man. I'm in a class of 83. My degree actually gets conferred in 1990, but I'm already in Dallas finishing up my first year. And I ended up in Dallas because when I looked at the people who influenced me, uh, one person was dr. E V Hill. Um, somebody that I just admired as a preacher of the gospel is simplicity, but boldness in preaching. Uh, the second person that influenced my preaching, uh, was dr. Lewis Patterson and just how he defined expositional preaching a giant giant. And then the third person that really impacted my ministry was, uh, dr. Herb Lusk. And, uh, he's known as the prey affiliate, right? He was a person that was a church. I attended part of my time at Swarthmore. And when I finished the swath, uh, when I left school, I ministered there. Um, in an intense way would pass the Lusk. Man. You talk about a love for the community. That dude, man, I, I would go around in a van at the time. This is before gentrification happened. Uh, the Richard Allen housing projects was like some of the toughest housing, public housing in the country. And man, we drive the van through all of these communities, man. It was like, it was like CUNY on steroids, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, I mean, and, and we would drive through and man, we picking kids up and we bringing them over to the church and we feed them and big Thanksgiving giveaways, man, you know, families are coming man with shopping carts. And I remember because he used to play with the Eagles and he was a chaplain for the Eagles. And so the Eagles, you know, they would come through and do stuff, man, over the holidays and things. But he really taught me what it meant to minister in an urban core and how to facilitate change in a positive way in your community. Man, I was, that was invaluable lessons that, that do taught me and he's still alive, man. And we still talk periodically, but man, just invaluable lessons. I was choosing between Dallas and Southwestern, um, passed the Hill past the Patterson recommended Southwestern. Um, but the history of Dallas seminary around expositional preaching and the Christian education program, those were the two things that I really thought I needed when I moved back to Pennsylvania to finish as Swarthmore, I went back to the church I attended when I was in college, talk to the pastor there, he was overseeing a small church in Chester, Pennsylvania. They were looking for a pastor. And so he said, man, you have some pastoral experience. He says, man, I think it would be great. So he recommended me. So that's how I got called to my second church. And I pastored at the freedom church for two and a half years. Man just had a tremendous time. Um, interestingly enough, I didn't have to leave. I could have went to the Dallas extension in Langhorne and I had a great job at a school for adjudicated youth. Uh, looking back now, knowing what I know, I probably would've stayed, which is why God didn't let me know what I know now, men. Cause I was like, nah, man, I'm going to Dallas. I'm going to Dallas. And so, you know, we packed up the U haul man. And by that time I had three kids and I had this crazy job man at Glen middle schools, I was a supervisor and we had like the best medical insurance. Like I didn't pay a dime for my youngest son being born like no like no deductible or anything state of the art facilities we could use on the campus. I had free housing. I mean I had all kinds of stuff, man. I look back now. I'm like, dude, what was you? Gossip go to Dallas. And so I went to Dallas man and uh, it was, it was a tremendous, tremendous experience for me. Um, you got to Dallas, were there any, uh, institutional challenges, uh, systematic racism you experienced, you know, we, we getting into itself. Yeah, absolutely. Man, there, there was. So here's what I've learned, man, about white people, uh, even the most for a white person to call themselves a racist, they have to be over the top. Right. Um, you know, because we we've seen people who, who just did some really racist stuff who would tell you in the midst of them doing it, but I'm not a racist. You see, I think they're blind to it. Or what, what is, what do you think is going on in the head or somebody like that? Cause we run it at the time. No, I think, I think what goes on is that the people who are racist or practice racism, it is, it is part of their nature because it's how they've been raised. So they don't see it as ugly. They don't see it as sin because that's just how they've been raised. You know? So Amy Cooper, for example, when she calls the police and wants to weaponize the police against Chris Cooper, who's out there watching birds, you know what I mean? And she says, I'm going to tell him that, that you know, a black man is threatening my life. She doesn't even understand how racist that is. And then when she issues or apology, she says, but I'm not a racist. And it's like, no, if you, if you try to weaponize the police against a black man purpose, that that is a racist act, right? You said the black man, right? That's that's, that's an intentionally racist act. Um, I think what I ran into in Dallas seminary, uh, were well meaning people who I think love God and some of whom love to the best of their ability. Um, but they didn't see it. And now I understand why. Um, so I I'll give you an example and this kind of give you, uh, just a frame of reference. Um, I go to Dallas in the fall of 1989. I don't even realize the majority books in my library were written by Dallas grads or Dallas professors. Right. And I start reading the back of the books and I'm like, Oh wait a minute. He said, Dallas, I mean he's a down. Huh? So when I get on the campus, I'm walking, I'm going, who is that? Oh my God, that's him. Who is that? Oh my God, that's him. So one of my, uh, heroes, uh, dispensational theology and eschatology was John Walsh. Right? Several of his books and dr. Walbert was the chancellor at the time he was president and then stepped down as president became, chancellor has an office in the student center that's named after him. And so I make an appointment, he's an institution at the institution. Right. So I'm, I'll make an appointment. I'm going to go see dr. Walford man. And dr. Walbert. I found out man ruled with an iron fist, right? I mean, you know, if, if, if a first year, second year professor said something in the media, he tell him to shut up. They didn't know what they were talking about. You know, they just got there. I mean, you know, he's just that kind of guy, but it took that kind of leadership to lead that campus through the tremendous expansion and growth that they had gone. So I go to see dr. Walbert man, I make this appointment and you know, I'm telling them, man, how much I appreciate him. I take some of the books that I want him to sign the books for me. And then I said, dr. Walford. I said, man, let me ask you a question. I said, you know, African Americans were welcomed on this campus during your administration. And that was a fundamental shift because foreign students, including Africans were allowed on the campus before African Americans were out black people. If you walked on the campus, now seminary, you could have been arrested. Right. And so I said to him, I said, what was it that made you all open? But up to African Americans, you know, what was it? And he said, we let colored people on this campus because the law told us we had to here. It's crazy, man. Uh, wait, so wait a minute. I want you to get this. So this is 1990 and I kind of go, yeah, I'm like, okay, wait a minute. We went through, we would n****s then colored Negro, black Afro American African women. I'm like, we going to go through at least five iterations here, bro. I'm like, did he just say colors crazy? And then I'm waiting. Cause I'm thinking it's a comma. And then he's going to say, but the Holy spirit or something, he, I mean, dead pan stoic was just like, we let colored people on this case because the law told us. And I was like, and that honestly has been sadly the majority of dealings that I've had with white evangelicals, that the law had to take us where we wouldn't allow love to take us. And that's crazy. Uh, you are part of the generation of African American preachers that will allow them into theologically conservative institutions because those guys before King and all those guys didn't have the, I wanted to, but didn't have the opportunity. Can you, I mean, you know that history, can you like, man, just, I don't people understand this or notice, but can you, can you kind of flesh that out for us? Yeah. So I think, I think we were, uh, my class, we were kind of the first group of any substance or size who came from the traditional church community who were going back. So even when I had, uh, the free church and other groups who say, Hey, man, we want to plant a church with you. I said, for what, you know, I'm going back to my neighborhood, man. I'm going back to my community. It's already existing churches there. And I was arguing for church revitalization even then. Um, one of my major professors at Dallas was a gentleman named Aubrey Malphurs who, uh, had written several works on planting churches and planting churches was the best way to evangelize communities and those kinds of things. And man, I would sit there in class with him and go, man, look, I know churches that already have buildings and facilities and land. They just need to be led through a transitional process and what that looks like. And it's so interesting. We would go back and forth, uh, in a really cool way. And then later on, after I graduated, he wrote a book on, uh, pouring new wine into old. Wineskins how to revitalize churches. But, uh, it, it was tough because minimally, uh, no, I don't want you to say minimally. Uh, where many of the white brothers and sisters on the campus, uh, African Americans would tolerate it even when I was in seminary. And we're talking about in the late eighties, early nineties. Um, and part of it is because I think it's better now, but most white churches, they didn't even like the term white church, right? Because for them it was just church. Everything else is an aberration off of church. And that's true. So whether it's our mission work or whatever, they just take church and they don't even view gospel. They don't view culture as something white people don't view culture as something that they have, everybody else has culture, they just do what they do and what they do is right. And everything else is wrong or an aberration off of it's the standard whereby which they measure everything else. So if something's good, it's because it's close to what they do. If it's bad, it's exactly it's far away from what they do. Right? So what they do, what they think is cetera. I had some tremendous professors, man, who, who saw beyond that foolishness. Some of the coolest guys, man, where the missing missions department, cause the missions people, man, you know, had lived overseas. Most of them were at least, uh, bilingual and they saw it. They understood, you know, and what I didn't know at the time was that the church growth movement that was really given birth to out of fuller theological seminary was really the application of biblical missiological principles in an American context. That's really where church growth. So guys like when Arne and, and other people like that, man, they just took those missiological principles that you would use to reach people in a foreign country and said, okay, America is a foreign country. How do we reach American man who are unchurched the unsaved? And so it was, it was tremendous man. But you know, I think one of the things that I've discovered, even in the context of this conversation today, when you hear phrases like white supremacy, white privilege, white fragility, when you hear those things, what I've come to realize is that much of it is white ignorance. Like they don't know. They really don't know. I mean, because they've never been taught a history of black people beyond slavery and most black people haven't been told, you know? And so, you know, we just had a person come to the church and register their child for the Barbara Jordan child development center. And they say, who is Barbara Jordan? I never heard of this as a black, never heard of her. This is a black person, never heard of her. And so, you know, I went, when we fully understand that there are people who know the name King because of a holiday and may have tangentially heard of Malcolm X because he was just juxtaposed against King, but never heard of a Booker T Washington or WB Dubois or a Marcus Garvey or, you know, a Fred Hampton or, you know, elders Cleaver or never heard of any of those people, man. And don't understand, you know, their historical context, man, you know, we just had, uh, you know, John Lewis and CT, Vivian just passed away this past Friday, but being so many people had no idea, both of those guys. Right, right. I thought the coolest picture was a picture of them arrested at the same protest in Jackson, Mississippi. And they both have this like almost smile smirk on their face. That's like, yeah, like this is like, this is all good. You know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, we in this fight, it's good. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, it was, it was tough, man. It was tough. I remember us, we, we pushed for inclusivity, uh, just racially. And I remember they started, uh, an ethnic chapel week. Uh, cause I was like, look, man, I came a worship man. That's like, you know, and so they, they would have an ethnic chapel week. I think it was once a year. And of course, uh, you know, those were the highest, uh, authorized cut days cause nobody wanted to come to those chapel services. Um, it was crazy. I remember my senior year, uh, first time in the history, I think of Dallas seminary, if I'm not mistaken, uh, usually senior preaching week are the four best preachers that took senior preaching. And then you would preach and senior preaching chapel. And at the end of the week, the professors would pick the winner of the ha Ironside award for excellence in expository preaching. And my senior year, I think if I'm not mistaken was the first time they had two African-Americans in the final four. Yeah that's. And because the year before they had, uh, an Indian gentlemen win, uh, and then the year before that a brother one and the year after me, a brother should've won, but he, he was a CE major and he didn't take senior preaching, but he preached in the African American chapel and got a standing ovation. I mean like wreck the house. He just didn't take senior preaching. And the year that I won the preaching award, uh, I got word that some white guys went to the pastoral ministries department, met with the chair and wanted to know what was going on with all these black guys, uh, in the preaching award. And

Speaker 2:

Well, it's funny. Cause one of the white professors

Speaker 1:

Said to me, he said, man, have you heard of that movie? White men can't jump. And I was like, yeah, he's like, well we need to do another one. White men can't preach.

Speaker 2:

I was like, I was like, prof, you said it. I didn't, I didn't say that. And he was like, no man.

Speaker 1:

I said, I'm serious, man. Uh, so there, there were a lot of things, man. I can remember, uh, the wives of faculty who volunteered at Luke's closet, which was where people would donate clothing and food to help students out. And you know, when African students walked in, man, it was so gracious and helpful. And I literally watched them when African Americans walked in to get assistance. And man, the whole tone changed. I mean it was like, it just acting real funky, real crazy. And it was like, Whoa, wait a minute. Where does come from? You know? Uh, and, and, and they didn't understand the history, you know what I mean? They, they just didn't understand it, man. And, and so, uh, it, it, it was challenging, but I think, uh, things have gotten better. I told you, pastor Patterson wanted me to go to Southwestern after I went to Dallas and several of us, we took a trip. I want to say my third year at Dallas, we literally rented a van. It's like seven to eight of us, drove down to Euston, hung out with him all day and then drove back to Dallas that night. And, uh, had a great time, man. We was with him for three services and he ended up sending both of his sons that down with some man, uh, afterwards. Um, cause he, he valued the education. He just felt like, you know, you would come out really not understanding your culture or appreciative of your culture. And when he saw that there was a group of us there who were like, nah, past a week, we come back home and we, you know, we, we eaten the meat, throw the bones away. So that's what it was. So, uh, pivoting, um, Matt given your, his man, you've got a rich history, uh, man, that needs to be captured in the book. We'll talk about that later. Um, well, and, and let me, I'm gonna interrupt you there because, cause you raise an interesting point, man. When I went to Dallas, I got this crazy education. And when I say a crazy education, you know, uh, how it, Hendrix used to tell us, don't let seminary get in the way of your education. Right. And I remember listening to him like the first semester when he said that to us, I'm like, okay, prof, what are you talking about, man? I had a gene Getz for, I think, three classes or classes, uh, including sharpening the focus of the church, church, renewal class with him, a family life class with him. Um, I worked for dr. EK Bailey, uh, EK, Bailey ministries. I worked at the urban alternative for Tony Evans, you know? And uh, and then I hung out with Aubrey Malphurs and he put together a group and he called us 300 hiddens and we was like, okay, what does that? And he was like, you know, that baseball, you guys had, he was like, no. Right, right. He's like, no, you guys have high potential in ministry. And you know, and so we met every week with him and when we had guest speakers come in, we would sit down man. And we get the Brown bag with them. Like they speak at chapel and then we get to have lunch with them afterwards man. And just chop it up. So people like RC Sproll uh, you know, I remember Charles Stanley came and spoke. I mean, just, just on and on man, we would get a chance to interact with people. You know, we were studying bill Hybels and Rick Warren man in the early nineties when they first got started in and looking at their ministries philosophically and the two and, and the cultural distinctives in Southern California and the Midwest and all of that kind of stuff, man, it was, it was crazy. And so I always tell people, man, I got the best. I got the best education man I could possibly get. And then I was working for the juvenile department. So I was constantly in that real world piece, I was kind of going in, it was almost like contrast hold man. Right? Lecture lab. I'm like, okay, scripture here. Okay, wait a minute. How will you apply this over here? You know? And I I'm seeing the disparities, I'm hearing the disparities. And when I went out into the field as a probation officer, I saw the insufficiencies of the church. Right. Because I'm literally, I'm going to homes. Cause I've got to make home visits. And I got my little badge. And so when I'm walking in the neighborhood, you know, and

Speaker 2:

Boys on the corner and they're like, man, who, that n***a over there, you know? And they talking to each other, but they want to make sure

Speaker 1:

Exactly. And somebody said, Oh, that's that's, that's Ray, Ray's PO. And they're like, alright, you know why

Speaker 2:

Ray Ray's house, I'm gonna check out Ray, gonna talk to his mom and then I'm gonna walk out and I'm gonna holler at him. I'm going to chop it up with him, you know? And then it really gave me a sense

Speaker 1:

Of that. The church has not pastoring our community, our neighborhood, man, these deed boys, if they don't know who I am, who's going to pass away. Who's going to shepherd. Who's going to love them into the kingdom, your church as a parish. Exactly. This man. Right, right. This is my neighborhood. So I want to know, you know, I want to know who's slinging. I wanna know who strolling. I want to know everybody, you know, up here and I don't care. Yeah. You got my number. Yeah. You know, uh, you know, I gave this chick, she was on the, on the street, you know, and I gave him my car and I said, Hey, you know, man, if there's anything I would do to help you, you know, you let me know. And one cat, you know, I, I dunno where she went to some D and she kept the car. She went to some spot, man wears a bunch of preaches. And then the dude call me, he's like, yo Caufield, man, what you're giving a whole year card for it. N***a don't want to get in a hole, your car. And I'm like, aye. Aye. Aye.

Speaker 2:

Well, I didn't even think of it like that. I'm just looking at a sister who was out there, man. And she just needed some food and needed something to eat. I mean, you know, she, ain't no high dollar, nothing, you know, she like$5 to get a sandwich, you know, a hot dog, you know what I mean? And so I'm like, Hey, here's a$5 and look, Hey,

Speaker 1:

I can help you. You know, some other way. Wasn't even thinking that way, man. And so, uh, that man was such a rich experience for me. Uh, people would have asked me, what's the difference between EK Bailey and Tony Evans, you know? And I would tell him, man, just the opportunity, you know, uh, you know, Tony man went to Dallas, was embraced, adopted by James Dobson and gene Getz and other guys and Bailey didn't have that. But you know, I would tell him, man, it's, it's, it's, it's the difference between uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, three button suit and a double breasted suit. Yeah. It's the same material. It's just a different, yeah, different peanuts, man. It's just different pattern. So given your, your, your education, your history, uh, your background and understanding of the neighborhood, your main longevity in ministry, you bought almost at 40 years, right? Thereabouts, 40 years in terms of total ministry next year, next year will be four years. We got to have a big celebration then. Yeah. Right. 40, make it 40. This is bad. That's that senior citizen already. Yeah, I know it is crazy. Yeah. Given all of that and hearing man, what we've, uh, what's transpired over the last couple of months, uh, really, uh, systemic racism being brought to a head, uh, through man, just a tragedy and the sacrificial death of all the hashtags, of course. But I mean, namely our brother, George Florida in this neighborhood, um, where do we go from here? So I, I think, uh, there's a couple of things. One, um, I think we have to recognize that the overwhelming majority of white people are ignorant. Um, and you can use that in the classic sense of ignoring or just simply not knowing. And you know, it's, it's a challenge, man. And I want people to think about this. It's a challenge when you are taught something all your life and then come to understand that you've been taught a lie, you've been taught. What's not true. And that's part of the discovery that white people are going through right now. And they're not even fully awoke yet. They're just scratching the surface. They're just, you mean, black people really go through this and then of course your white friends come to you and say, man, is that true? Why have you ever experienced something like that? And you almost want to laugh and be like, yeah, it was like, really? Are you serious? Do you mind talking? Right. Would you mind talking to us about it? You know? Uh, and so I think there's a, there's an educational component and there is now an atmosphere of, okay, we want to hear this. Um, I think the other piece is there's a generation that's coming millennials and gen Z years in particular who are educated and who do know, and who have a sense of conscious when you're talking about white folk minorities. I'm talking about both. I'm talking about both in general and in general, in general, I think. And let me say, I think part of that is attributable to, uh, online and they've been able to look up and research and be educated. I think the other piece that many, many people are downplaying is the role that hip hop is playing in this and the exposure of a whole generation of white people, similar to those in the sixties who were exposed to not the temptations, what they were exposed to the what's going on, Marvin Gaye. And they were exposed to the we're winners, Curtis Mayfield, right? That, that, that social consciousness that the Gil Scott Heron, that social consciousness, but it never even approach the size of influence internationally that you've seen with hip hop. True. You know? And so that, that's a piece man that has revealed a whole lot and has brought a sense of consciousness, uh, to, I think all generations, but especially to this white generation of young people and that, and I think you can't discount the role that organizations like black lives matters has played in educating and training and mobilizing, not just saying to white people, you have white privilege, but teaching them what to do, what they were white privilege, you know, you never saw a man. Uh, you can watch the sixties in the videotapes. You didn't see white people at the front of the line taking hits no true vivid. Right, right, right, right. Right. The white people were like at the back, you know, man, they got white people in the front and you got white people wearing black lives matter shirts. I saw more white people wearing the shirts. Then, then black people. I was like, Whoa. I'm like, wow. And, and this multiethnic force that is saying, no, you're going to have to deal with us. You know? Uh, I see, uh, a move that's happening. So when you look at people like John Whitmire and people like Rodney Ellis and the like, uh, Rodney now is County commissioner, right. Uh, El Franco Lee passed away. But those guys, man, you know, when you've been in office 20, 30 years and you're in your fifties or sixties, that means you got elected when you were in your twenties and early thirties. Right? I mean, so, you know, we looked at Lena Hilda[inaudible] election at 28 as this, you know, kind of misnomer. This is an outlier and it was, and it was unexpected. But the generation of cats who are in now who have been in office 30 years, 35 years, they got elected when they were young. And so I think, I think what we're seeing now, men with this young generation is, um, this powerful combination man of energy and enthusiasm, uh, energy and enthusiasm education, uh, and, and, and expertise that for me is exciting. You know? Uh, and man, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to see what's what's happening, what what's going on. So to answer your question, here's what I see. I think this is all almost like Maslov's hierarchy of needs, okay. Where this has to be approached on multiple levels and you have some basic fundamental needs, very practical things that need to be taken care of, like addressing. If you're going to educate kids, virtually addressing the digital divide, um, you know, addressing issues like poverty and hunger and, and those kinds of things. Those are basic needs that have to be met. But then you also have to address beyond the practical. You've got to address policy issues that need to be addressed. So it's a combination of dealing with qualified immunity, immunity with police officers, but also strategizing when an officer terrorizes, a kid, what are, what's going to be our strategy now to call for an internal affairs affairs investigation. And we're going to press this matter, and we're not going to wait for you to kill a kid, but we're gonna, we're going to jump on you when you pull this kid over and the kid is walking his dog and you ask him, what is he doing? And he's walking his dog, or you make a young man coming home from middle school, dump out his backpack. Cause you say, tell him, he looks like a drug dealer and he's walking home school that kind of foolishness. We've got to address the both and, and not either or, and that, and that's what I'm hoping that we come out of this conversation that I think has been sparked by George's murder. I'm not discounting anybody else's death, uh, because all of them were part of this sum, total that resulted in the straw, breaking the camel's back. I think it's important for us who we're fighting to not argue amongst ourselves over what is the most important aspect and to recognize that they're all important. And we have to learn now how to coordinate those efforts so that we're addressing the lower level needs. And the higher level needs that we're engaged in both changing practices, as well as the longer fight that it takes to change policies and everything in between. And how can we make sure that wherever we need to join in the fight that we're getting in the fight that everybody may not March, what can I use my voice and can I use my social media platform? Can I use my radio show? And can I use my pulpit? Can you use this broadcast? And all of those things we understand are part and parcel of what it's going to take to facilitate the kind of change that we need to say in this community. Do you fear that a month, almost two months after a George Florez murder, that the fervor and the emotion that we saw and felt, uh, do you fear that it could die down or, or are you more hopeful than in some of us? I think, I think, um, I, my concern is that we are experiencing in the black community in particular, uh, racial exhaustion, um, because we have lived with it for so long. And I think there's always this hope that when something is true and is proven to be true, that people will accept it and do something about it. And what we are seeing now is, is tremendous white lash that is coming out of the loss of white privilege or the identifying of white privilege and this understanding or failure to understand what white fragility is. I think we have to define in this country one, what is racism? Because, um, if we don't properly define it and we're all using the same definition, then we're not going to get anywhere in this argument. Um, so when somebody sees affirmative action as reverse racism, instead of seeing it as an attempt to reverse the effects of racism, then we have a problem because now you will quickly turn victims into victimizers and victimizers into victims. True. Right. Um, secondly, and this really has to do more with the body of Christ. Are we willing to call racism, sin? Because if we don't call racism sin, then we don't have a moral ground to deal with. So then you end up with this idea that America was not stolen, but it was conquered. Right? And, and you, you really don't understand, uh, that this issue of race and sin around race, didn't start in the Americas. You know, this was, this was a new Testament issue, right? This was a scripture issue. Yeah. And so is it sin? And then the third issue is, uh, again, I've, I've, I've never heard a white person in person admit to being a racist. And I think I've only heard one in my entire lifetime and this and this dude was like the president of the KKK skinheads and something else all at the same time. And he called himself a racist, most white people don't ever want to identify themselves as a racist, even if they are passive or active participants and participators in white supremacy and racism. So here's what I'd tell white people. Are you willing to be an anti racist? And that's the third question that they've got to answer. Are you willing to be an antiracist so that if I'm outside of your house and I'm getting beat up by five races, I don't want you sitting down in your house talking about, you're not a racist because you didn't come up and beat up on me. No, I don't need you to passively sit by. I need you to become an active participant in doing and making things, right. Are you willing to become an antiracist so that now you are on the battlefield fighting the injustices that we see and what we're seeing is, and I think we're making headway emotionally, because what we're seeing white people and white evangelicals doing now is trying to throw salt on the message because of the organization. So they'll look at, for example, an organization like black lives matters, who has become the catchall for all people who want to protest. And there are some who are living a lifestyle that evangelicals don't agree with. Right? And so now what they're saying is, well, you know what, we, we're not going to accept the message because we don't agree with how the messenger is living as if, whenever you deal with people in the world, it's almost like we forgot where missionaries, like we, we find common ground with whoever we, we can go to, uh, to Tibet and find common ground. But we can't find common ground with people who are doing good work, no matter what we think about their lifestyle. It's, it's almost like we don't really want to do it. We just gonna find right. We're going to find the shoes. So, so for example, you, you want, you want to support, uh, a massage, Venus, uh, a xenophobe, a racist in the white house. And you justify that because you say he's pro-life right, right. And you say you didn't elect him for moral issues and you know, for, for morality, but you want to cascade cast the gate Clinton because he got a blow job in the oval office. Yeah. Yeah. And listen, he got to go, you know? And it's like, but this dude is talking about grabbing women in the crotch and forcing himself on women. But you cool with that, right? Yeah. It is crazy. It's, it's, it's a, but, but again, go back to this anti-racist argument, I'm saying, come out to your house and help me if you really love me, don't say you're prolife before birth. And in turn your back on me after I'm born, you know, my, my youngest, uh, newest grandson was born may the 28th. And I told a group of white pastors, man, I loved him before he was born. And I'd have laid down my life for his unborn life because of the potential of who he is. But once he was born, once his mother gave birth to him, I didn't love him less. I loved him more. Right. Right. If, if I would lay down my life before he was born, you know, I'm gonna lay down my life for him after he was born, are you kidding me, Julia, you had the joy of knowing him, man, just[inaudible]. And the truth of the matter isn't and I told some white churches, this white pastors is, I said, the truth of the matter is the pro life movement was never about saving black people. Cause we weren't aborting our babies. Right. It was, it was about stemming the tide of you practicing self genocide against your own race, which has resulted in the Browning of America. Right. And now it is irreversible. You can't change it. Right? So you going to build it because Latinos on aborting their babies, you know what I mean? That's not right. And I'm talking about in general, right? Not at all. And it wasn't until we decided that we were going to emulate the, at the time majority culture that we started doing them. So they build them in our neighborhoods. And I told a couple of the white pastors, why don't y'all put planned Parenthood in your neighborhood, make it easily accessible to your kids. Why are you bringing it over, get ours. Right. You know? And so, uh, those three questions, man, I think, I think we have to ask an answer. I believe that the key to this is really the church. I don't think we can get to the place of change systemically until we understand that the systems that have been placed are undergirded and have built their foundation in the soil of bad hermeneutics and poor homiletics. And so it's not until you understand that. No, I am also created in the image of God that a Margo day is here. That we're all from dirt. Right? Right. We're all from dirt. And you just moved a little further from the equator and that dark can't come out of white, white can only come out of dark. True. Right. And until you come to grips with that, man, there was a guy Joel Gregory told his story. Uh, there was a, uh, uh, a white Southern Baptist apologists named TB Maston who Maston TB Maston in the fifties, early sixties wrote a book out of acts. Um, and the title of the book was of one blood. And this white guy talked about all of us, the entire human race coming out of one blood man. And he told Joe Gregory of the hate mail that he got, uh, telling him he was wrong. And he was a n****r lover and, and all of these things, man. And he's just like, man, I'm just excavating the texts, man. Wow. You know, I'm just exit genus scientists at work. Right. Just gonna tell you what it says. You can take what here's, what take, what you want out of it. And so on until, uh, the church, the white church owns the ungodly message that it has preached and taught for years and has since set silently by never correcting or redacting that message never apologizing for that message. Uh, until that happens, uh, we're not going to see the change that needs to occur, man. Um, last couple of questions. Uh, you, there, there are folk who would say, Hey man, and this is black and white. Uh, and whoever else, uh, would say until Jesus comes, we're not going to see the full manifestation of the kingdom. So why do we put our efforts into this? Yeah. So I think, I think there's a couple of things. One, I hear the words of Jesus saying occupy until I come that, um, you know, when, when the scripture says, without God, we can do nothing that never excuses us to do nothing. It just says what you do, you do with God. And, and for me, you know, I think when we talk about speaking truth to power and calling sin out, that's why I initially said, man, it's racist. Is racism a sin because if it's a sin, then it's a discipleship issue. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you can't, you know, it's just like saying, you know, well, you know, um, you know, we're not gonna talk about domestic violence, you know what you mean? Like if it is brutalizing women beating children, is that not a sin? Like, do we not? Do we not see that as, as a gospel issue, right. We're going to wait to Jesus, come back to fix it. And so then, you know, okay, why, why are we, why are we preaching against anything that's wrong? Right. You know, uh, any sin for that matter, if it's, if we're going to wait until Jesus comes back, we have a responsibility why we're here, uh, to do all that we can. And I believe it's a sin issue. I believe it's a discipleship issue. Um, when we talk about evangelism and edification, you've got to see it as a discipleship issue. When you had, when you had, uh, Southern Baptist deacons who were simultaneously and preachers who were simultaneously members of the KKK who went to church on Sunday and saying the great hymns of the church, and then went out Sunday evening and, and lynched a black man or a black woman, you know, that's a discipleship issue. Right. You know, that's a kingdom issue. Then that pastor was missing a key component of helping his people to see holistically that what they were doing was wrong. And it was so, and it was so ingrained that it was institutionalized and it was part of it. And let me, you the church, and let me tell you, what's so crazy about it. Now I've talked to several white pastors who in the wake of the George Floyd killing felt some responsibility to say something about injustice in this country. Some of them have lost members. Some of them have had members stand up in the midst of a sermon and walk out and it's like, okay, so what kind of gospel have you been preaching? You know what I mean? Like, like that, but, but you really are seeing a reaction to truth. You really seeing a reaction to truth. And so I'm encouraging, um, white pastors, see, when you see me as less than human, then you feel justified in treating me in an inhumane way. Yeah. You know, and, and even though you may not say it, um, you still thinking it, it's still part of the fabric and fiber of what you do. You know, when you look at the law and order society and the Pattie rollers, and you look at other people like that. And they, these are the precursors to modern policing agencies. As we see them the day whose initial responsibility was to capture slaves, bring them back and to capture freed slaves, even after the massive patient proclamation and bring them back. And you had judges who were paid$5 for every freed slave that they would release, but$10 if they send them back to their plantations. So you incentivize right. Slavery in the judicial system. Yeah. That's crazy. Right. And, and, and to realize that we haven't man, and this is the biggest, because peace, man, I want to help your audience get, man, we haven't come that far, man. It seems like as far away, man, my grandfather was born in 1898. He was 86 years old when he died 1898. That dude, man, I love that brother, man. I just loved that dude. Right. I thought about it. He was born in 1890. Hey, the emancipation proclamation was signed in 1863, right. January 1st, 1863. Which means what? He shook the hands of people who were slaves, man. Yeah. So I shook the hand of a man who shook the hand of slaves. Wow. That's just one generation removed. I mean, I have my mother there, but I'm saying one generation in terms of the shift, the hands of somebody who was a slave, my great grandfather was the product of slavery. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So he was older than my grandfather. Okay. He was a product of, of my, it would have been my great, great grandmother being raped by a white man. So it's like, we haven't come that far, man. So when we look at time, we think in terms of years, but we really need to think in terms of generations and when you have those generations overlapping and coinciding and co-mingling, then those ideologies get passed very, very easily, very easily. I told somebody just an example here in Houston. I said, you know, you hear people say, uh, uh, Sunnyside, Texas. Okay. Sunnyside, Texas. And you're like, man, why did they say Sunnyside, Texas? You know, it's like, it's Houston, Texas. You know why didn't say sunny side. So I asked somebody, I said, do you know when Sunnyside was annexed into the city of Houston? 1956. Wow. 1956. I was born in 61 principality. It was all city. Basically. It was, it was, it was, uh, it was what, the, what the County would call, uh, an unincorporated area. Yeah. Sunnyside texts. Some of a mother areas. Right. Acres home was an unincorporated area. It was annexed into the city of Houston. Okay. So when you got mail in 1956, it went to Sunnyside, Texas. Wow. Yeah. So it's not people, you know, just trying to make up stuff. No, that's what it was called. Uh, you know, you, you pass it in third ward. Right? Right. I passed it in third ward. I live in the tray. I live on Cleburne street. Right. But third ward hasn't been used as a political boundary designation for over a hundred years. Yeah, true. Right. No, nothing politically. They said third ward for over a hundred years, man. But we still have, I just rolled by sign third ward, Texas, welcome third ward, Texas. You know what I'm saying? So, so what may change legally does not change socially in the same timeframe. True. Right. And so we haven't come that far, man. And that's the challenge that I think we all need to understand. How do we continue to push this discussion, recognizing that we've got to educate, um, we, we've got to unlearn some people or some stuff, man, and I'm not just talking about white people. You know, we gotta unlearn some black people too. Yeah, man. Uh, uh, man, I just, just, what does it mean for, you know, no one talks about this and you brought it up, what does it mean for black people to, to learn? What is it that we, you would advise us to get, uh, get busy learning? Yeah, I think we've got, I think we have to get busy, uh, reading the, the sad part is, uh, white people are ignorant of our history. What's tragic is we are ignorant of our own history. And so we don't even have the ability or the wherewithal to stand on our own history in terms of who we are as a people, um, that we come from a lineage of Kings and Queens. And we come from a lineage of scientists and mathematicians and geniuses that that's who we come from, that this idea, um, that, that white people have, have put out and, and it's, and it's a lie that black people are lazy, you know, and we built this country, you know, how are you going to call people that you put in slavery who work for free for a hundred years, you go call them lazy. You know, uh, the fact that that all of us are criminals, you know, this criminal element, uh, that was helped, you know, fueled and, and burned into the memory of this country, you know, by that horrific film birth of a nation, you know, that all black men are rape rapists and savages and animals, and we've seen it perpetuated, you know, uh, man, it's hard for me to even watch certain things now, you know, I mean, you know, and I mean, I ain't watching, I can't watch Tarzan. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, I mean, you know how how's a white man swinging through the jungle, you know, none of the black folk in there sophisticated, none of us know anything. Right. Um, same thing with native Americans, you know, you know, Cowboys and Indians, you know, no man I'm playing the Indian and we going to scalp y'all I ain't playing, you know what I mean? Like, you know, but, but those kinds of things, um, you know, the, the, the, the, the false notion that we are ignorant that our, our children can't learn, you know, when we had our, uh, elementary school, our charter school, the last year that we went existence, our third graders outscored every third grade cohort in a 50 mile radius around Houston. And that's what, that's what the commissioner from tea said, wow. I said that to an educator. They said, well, that's just because you didn't have that many students. And that's just, and I was like, can you give our kids credit? Right. But can you just give him some love, like, you know, because here's the problem with less kids. That means our kids had to do that much better. Cause you couldn't just blend them in. Right. They had to do that much better. But again, it's that misnomer that our kids can't learn. Right. I was on a call prior to this one. And, you know, we were talking about the, the, the, the clear evidence that our children have been undereducated since Brown vs the board of education. Um, and what what's been interesting is, you know, my father, I said earlier, it was from Alabama. So there were three men mantras in our, in our household. Failure's not an option mediocrities unacceptable. And you gotta be twice as good as white people. Right? Not, he never told us and never told me I was, I was twice as good as them, better than them, but that I had to be twice as good. So that if my resume went across a desk and a white man's resume, went across a desk, my resume couldn't be as good as his and I would get consideration, not the world that we live in my resume better be twice as good. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But post Brown versus the board of education, post segregation, we were educated by the descendants of our oppressors, who said, failure is expected. You ought to be grateful for mediocrity, and you're not half as good as I am. Right. And so everything that propelled us and promoted us to produce more doctors, lawyers, engineers, per capita nurses, teachers pre desegregation, was absent after desegregation. And here's the example I give. And I don't know what people would feel about it, but I think this is true. You know, what would have happened to the Jewish race if after world war two, they turned the education of their children over to the descendants of Nazi Germany. Yeah. That that's, I mean, what, that's a great analogy. What would they have been told? They would have been told that the Holocaust was wasn't that bad, right? There was some Jews that actually did better after the Holocaust. The Holocaust was a figment of the imagination. You need to just let it go. You need to just forgive and forget about it. You know, you got to move forward now, man, we're not going to put our narrative in your hands. We're not going to allow you to teach our history. We're going to teach our own history. We're going to take the Shamar seriously. We're going to sit and we're going to instruct our children in the ways we're going to tell our children and our grandchildren, what these stones mean. We're not going to let you teach our children. The problem is we turn the education of our children over to the wives, the mothers, and the grandmothers of our oppressors. And then we wonder why we are getting what we're getting in terms of our children. And while we can point to some outliers who were able to survive that hostility, you know, I think about man, that little rock nine, I'm like, man, how could man, how did, how can you get educated, man, James Meredith, how can you go into the university of Mississippi, man? How can you even concentrate when you being spit on and, and talked about man and called out of your name, I go, are you serious? I mean, it took a level of intestinal fortitude and strength that I don't even know if we have present in this generation, man, because you know, those people had a level of, of not just intellectual ability, but emotional strength to be able to survive man, through that kind of hostility. And so man, w we've we've got, we've got to read our own story. We've got to write our own story. Just like you're doing on this platform. We've got to tell our own story and tell it to whoever will listen. And if nobody wants to listen and tell it for ourselves, right, man, this is, this has been an amazing time, man. I, I, I've grown, uh, just from this conversation and just want to thank you, man. Just, uh, for man, your charity, your time. Uh, man, thank the Lord for man. Just the experiences he's placed you through the education he's given you man. And uh, the 19 that man just comes through. Every time you, you put your mind to something, man, just thank you. Uh, in general, man, when man, I'm honored to be with you, man, proud of you and the work that you're doing. And you know, I think we just keep on fighting that good fight, man. Vernon. John said, if you see a good fight, get in it. And I always add, if you don't see a good fight start one, man. So, um, if I, if I don't see a good one, I'm going to start a good one then. Well thank you for raising this up, man. I appreciate you, man.