In this episode, we talk to Chris Clemons, a native of Houston, Texas, and church planter in Pearland, Texas. Pastor Clemons is the lead pastor of The Way of Life Baptist Church. Pastor Clemons shares how he uses the power of prayer to navigate race relations in the U.S. and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead an ethnically and politically diverse community. When asked, "Where do we go from here?" he shared his thoughts on the need for reform in our justice system, policing, and the need for educated voters to hold politicians accountable.
In this episode, we talk to Chris Clemons, a native of Houston, Texas, and church planter in Pearland, Texas. Pastor Clemons is the lead pastor of The Way of Life Baptist Church. Pastor Clemons shares how he uses the power of prayer to navigate race relations in the U.S. and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead an ethnically and politically diverse community. When asked, "Where do we go from here?" he shared his thoughts on the need for reform in our justice system, policing, and the need for educated voters to hold politicians accountable.
Alright, I'm here with pastor Chris Clemons, the pastor of life church in pair LAN homeless, Shaquille O'Neal uh, uh, man, uh, pastor Clemons. How are you today? Yeah, I'm doing great brother. Good to see you. Cool. If you would, I'd just like for you to introduce yourself the way you would and then we'll go from there. Oh man. You know, look here bad. I'm a human being called by God to do stuff beyond his capacity dependent the whole way through. So you may, man, I'm going to get into this story a little bit, man. Where are you from? Where'd you grow up from Houston, Texas. Uh, my early years were in the Kashmere gardens area of Houston. Uh, we moved out to the suburbs when I was about six years old and the second grade, the only black kid in the class. Oh man. Yeah. And uh, one, one black girl, uh, was in the class and knowing it's all get out. Uh, and that's kind of where my experience, uh, growing up. Um, the neighborhood was predominantly white. Um, and you know, as we got closer to high school, it started to get a little bit more diverse, uh, out there in the, all the district North part of Houston. And, uh, that was my, my experience. I remember one of my, just a funny story. Uh, when we moved in to the house, uh, we had a couple of neighbors, couple kids down the street and, uh, I re I really hadn't had any experiences with, with, with white people to that point in time. And a little boy came over, we've gone play in a sprinkler and, uh, he took off his shirt and I saw all this green stuff kind of like hunters and it's scared me, man. And I went and I wouldn't ask my mom, my mom was a nurse. I said, what's wrong with that boy. See how they agreeing stuff. She's saying that isn't correct. Correct. And, uh, man, that was the beginning of many of those types of experience. And so you finished high school in the Aldin area? Yes. Astronaut high school. Oh, you went to us and I have so many as a house, as it has produced a lot of greatness, uh, man, uh, uh, from Eisenhower,
Speaker 2:Uh, you went to the university of Houston, right?
Speaker 1:Yes. Okay. Well, not in that.
Speaker 2:Okay. Tell us, tell, tell us
Speaker 1:Directly went to the university of Texas, uh, on a partial engineering scholarship and was completely irresponsible at the university of Texas
Speaker 2:As, as, as people tend to be man, a great town
Speaker 1:This year was, it was too good. And so that's how I found myself back to Houston and enrolling in university.
Speaker 2:So you majored in chemistry and why chemistry?
Speaker 1:Uh, cause I had started the chemical engineering, um, because of the classes and how they're situated. It was going to take me a little longer time to graduate with the engineer. So I downshifted the chemistry to get out of school.
Speaker 2:And then all this time, uh, when did you, when did your role in the church become more prominent in your life?
Speaker 1:Sure. Um, cite, it was towards the end of the college years. Uh, towards the, I guess middle nineties, I was in a church in, in acres, home Houston, calm monitor that Fisher and a family just basically chose to kind of adopt me and mentor me. And they were very active in the church and that's kind of where I learned my leadership and uh, grew tremendously and MFA. And so I started out there. Um, he asked me to be his assistant Sunday school director. I had no idea about any of that stuff and uh, say yes. And from that I was an assistant director of a new young adult ministry and I was the one that helped organize it because of what I learned from the Sunday school role with, uh, it was the Russell's family that adopted. And then from there I was the youth minister at the church and you got to call and go full time. Um, that's my job as a lab manager and enrolled in seminary full time and God facilitated my move to the good hope missionary Baptist church where I became the youth pastor all group, pastor the utility.
Speaker 2:I remember my time at Goodhope. I was like, man, if there's a question that needs to be asked, no matter how big or small, uh, I, I went to pass the Clements of man and I always have this joke. I tell you, I don't know if I've ever told you. I was like, man, you know, in ministry, you got parents pass the Coalfield was my dad as the Clemons was my mom. I come to pass the Clemons with everything. I came with some of the critical things to my dad, but usually I came to pass the Clemens. And so man, it's, uh, it's, it's been an honor and a pleasure to serve with you now. Um, w w what, what made you move from saying, Hey, I'm a, I'm a Christian, uh, I'm at a church to saying, man, I want to be a, a, well, what most people would formally described as a minister.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it wasn't a logical thing. Um, brother, I know, I know it sounds mystical and magical when we talk about a calling, but it's sort of like a realization of truth. Uh, I was again, assistant director to Sunday school. I would teach Sunday school. That was the assistant director of our young adult ministry. And, um, so teaching speaking, I would do that as that role, uh, what call for and in a black church, if a black man starts to speak on a microphone, if he's halfway articulate, he conjugate some of his verbs. Absolutely. They're going to label preacher on it. They're going to want to draft them into being Reverend such. And I was resistant to that. I'm like, no, you know, I can do what I do. Um, just like anybody else speak. And you know, I need a burning Bush type experience that I was going to have to really get a hold of me and I'm open it. Wasn't one of those things where I like, I don't want to, but it was a mindset of not to, because you say so, yeah, it's got to come from that. And then it was out. And I was reading about Elijah, you know, when he was writing and fearful of, of jazz a bale and, you know, God had him hiding the Clift of the mountains and, and, and God passed by and you know, he wasn't in the fire and he wasn't in the equate and that whisper came and it was just like, as I was reading, it was like a real deal. It wasn't audible, but it was just this strong sense of conviction of Chris. You're already doing it, but wasn't one of those things I need you to start doing. I just want you to continue doing it. And brother, I, man, I broke down and that's where it started.
Speaker 2:So, uh, there's segue. So now, um, you, uh, you believe good hope you begin to, uh, plant a church in bare land, Texas pear land. Texas is a little different than Houston, Texas. You want to describe pear land. I know you are the expert on all things bare land.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I wouldn't say that, but, uh, it's definitely suburbia. Um, and especially at the time and which, again, this was another call to go to barrel. It wasn't something that was on my radar. Uh, I did have on my heart, uh, to bring people together, uh, through the gospel and to promote that whatever community God would have me to be in. And so apparently it is a suburb of suburb, uh, definitely upper middle class when it comes to the, uh, income, but extremely diverse in population. And, uh, it's almost almost as if you were to cut up the pie on the color palette, almost being evenly distributed. Uh, and so, you know, Houston is the most diverse city in the United States and apparently in has to be the one of, if not the most diverse sub community, community of Houston. Um, and, and so that's where I am. Uh, it's a mixture of everything out here and you gotta have some tradition and none tradition.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So have you, uh, w what does it take to be a black pastor in a diverse community to you,
Speaker 1:Man? That's a great question, uh, is, is it's not easy and not easy in the sense of not, not necessarily, uh, any type of external thing per se, but, uh, you know, striking, I guess, a balance not losing who you are, but also trying to reach people. And so that whole idea of calming all things so that some might be safe, you become all things, but at the same time, you can't lose who you are. And so there's a, there's a struggle there, there's a, there's a places, um, some crossroads that happen when that's fleshed out. And so I think that's probably been the most challenging thing and especially bringing other people along in that process.
Speaker 2:So flesh that out for me, when you say a challenge or struggle, I mean, what do you mean? Uh, for instance?
Speaker 1:Sure. So I mean, the stuff that's happening right now, uh, you know, the, the, this unity that we have, not just in the of race, but it's in so many ways, there's so much division. And so as a pastor, part of your role as a peacemaker, right, let's start a peacemaker formation all this up subs of God, all of a sudden. Yeah. And so you're a peacemaker, first of all, trying to reconcile people to God. And then of course, uh, with one another, how do you do that? Do you do that as a Democrat and part of town is highly Republican. Um, how do you do that with small stuff when it comes to music, uh, what you post and forward on social media? Um, at the same time you have, you know, especially in my situation, if a good portion of your core group has a bit, that's on the other side of the fence, how do you reach and not alienated at the same time? And so even little things like music, you know, how do you formulate the worship set so that the people who are with you don't leave and at the same time that people who aren't with you might not. And, uh, it is so is, is that an easy thing? You know, and some people they're just like, I'm just going to be who I am type thing. And, uh, whatever I like, that's what I'm going to do. I understand that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Um, but God has kind of shaped me to try to go after, you know, the one if gonna leave the 99. And, uh, that's just my bit, so I'm of the mindset, man. I don't, we, we did, we've done worship in Spanish and I might be one of two people in the congregation that can read a little, I want to say speak, I could read some spans, but, uh, that's just been the mindset.
Speaker 2:And, uh, uh, you know, you talked a little bit about the times that we're in, uh, you, you heard and saw some of the things that have happened, um, to members of, uh, the local Houston community, particularly with Georgia, Florida, or some of your reactions as you were, uh, watching and witnessing some of those events.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, of course his death was a devastating, uh, basically trying to get emotional now, really thinking about it. Uh, I know with like the days after, like I cried every day, um, just thinking about it and I was at a series a at the time called, uh, from discouraged to encourage. And I remember that Wednesday, um, after his murder of really just praying, just real frankly, the guy's a God, I'm in his series, you got me in this series and I'm discouraged and I need you to encourage me so that I can encourage a B. And, and thankfully he did answer that prayer, the affirmative, he encouraged me to activate it and that same day, but, um, it was definitely a very emotional time. Um, and, and especially in the immediate aftermath, uh, you know, it was very tender. And so, you know, I wasn't as necessarily pastoral and responses and comments. Uh, and I don't say that to brag about it, but just sharing with the honest reality. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but yeah, it was, it was, uh, I was, I was hurt. I was angry. Uh, you know, and of course it was everything that led up to that, you know, um, with our bigger behind Taylor, uh, even Chris Cooper and, and, and the central park incident, you know, all that,
Speaker 2:It was like compounding very quickly, almost weekly. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes. And it was, you know, and it is largely because of ignorance, you know, the whole stuff with, you know, we were on, I think that started what in February, and it's just, we didn't know same thing with Ahmad. We just didn't know. But like you say that the timing, I guess, as things was being expressed was, was very quick and sequential. And, uh, and so all of that, I think fed into the emotion, uh, that I, uh, Hmm.
Speaker 2:So, um, through the process of processing through your pain, um, and what are some of the things that you did know this would be helpful for some folks? What are some of the things you did to kinda, uh, heal, I guess, from, from that trauma that you, you experienced?
Speaker 1:Sure, sure. I mean, I shared one thing, I know it sounds so generic and cliche, but I, you know, afraid, um, uh, literally, right. And I mean, you know,[inaudible] and everything else, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a lay me down to sleep. Sorry, prayer. Um,
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, uh, you, you say prayer and man, I've experienced people who almost, and I'm talking about Christians who almost, uh, not laugh, but almost dismiss the notion that we ought to pray. Not because prayer isn't good or just, I don't know if it's a feeling of, uh, uh, I'm tired. Oh, he's not listening, or he's not hearing. What would you say to those people in admin? How do you get back to prayer?
Speaker 1:Sure. Um, part of the reason they feel that way is there's a feeling from their perspective that it doesn't work. And the reason they may feel that it doesn't work because they have experienced a time when they gave it a shot and they did not get the response that they desire, or maybe from their perspective, they didn't get any response. And so, especially in that's a personal experience. And then just in, in general experiences with these type of tragic, you hear the same thing, Hey, we got to pray like where we keep praying. And we don't see the changes that we desire to see about what we pray and, and what I guess my response to that when, when I pray, I don't see it as a tool to get what I want. Um, it is an expression of my relationship with God, whether or not he changes my circumstance. He is my father and I seek him for everything. And I go to him. I mean, you, you know, you use, uh, the analogy earlier now. I appreciate it. You know, as far as who you went to, uh, in, in your ministry and it's the same thing. Um, I think, you know, I can't think about not going to him, um, and, and circumstances, and especially in times in which I am distressed, but that's not the only time I go to. And, uh, the other thing I would add to that is not just prayer. That is an expression of my relationship, but there are things that facilitate that relationship. And one of which is I genuinely try to do what I think he wants me to do. Um, and I have witnessed, um, the benefit of seeing him affirm, um, what he calls me to do. And so it encourages me to do more. And so it sort of feeds into a, let me be faithful here, let me pray more here. Cause man, I he's going to do something and I'm good with whatever he does.
Speaker 2:You, you honed in on something that, I mean, it's striking me. So basically you're saying, um, you know, obeying him in what we would seemingly call the little things, kind of leads to more of a, uh, and then seeing him work through those little things, kinda grows my faith and to just into trusting him. And I, I think that I don't, I maybe something in my own mind has just kind of clicked where, and the things that the Lord has asked me to do. Very small thing that I think here too, for this date I have. Uh,
Speaker 1:And it's true. That's all of us. I don't want you to think that, you know, I check every box every day. Um, that's not the case. What I try to do is respond to every check box. So, so part of that is, you know, repentance when I don't check a check box, so it's still relationship and that's still faith on this. Cause that's what he calls me to do when I am disobedient. Um, but at the same time, when you get a sense of the things that he calls you to do, let's say it's one out of the three and you're moving in that direction. There is sort of a spiritual momentum I got at the same time. You will experience some resistance by the enemy at the same time, but what God does encourage is you so much more than what the devil does discouraged. And I mean, that's why I've given my life to this man. I was like I said, I was lab manager, you know, financially becoming a pastor. That's not the move. Right. You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2:If you want to make some money, don't, don't do this job. Even the people you think are making money, they ain't making money. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you know, and especially if you're going to do it the right way, now you can be deceptive than anything and, and, and get a dollar. But if you call yourself trying to do right by God, this, you only do this because he called up front. Uh, but I have made those leaks. That was a leap, just making that call, giving up, um, a career, you know, security. I put that in quotes, um, in the traditional sense to, uh, take on that call, to proclaim the gospel and then doing it again to uproot my family, sell my house, to move to a community that never really known before. Uh, you know, you get to see amazing things as you, as you take those steps of faith that he calls you to. It's a qualifier.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. Uh, speaking of, um, leaps of faith, it has been apparent just in my observation, that there's a big divide as to whether these issues of race and ethnicity are things that the church should be tackling. I th I've seen the divide of course vary between. I mean, you may not agree with this characterization white church and black church I've seen, I've also seen the divide within black church or conservative people say, Hey, we need you or minority churches, more conservative. He would say, Hey, we need to preach that Bible, which y'all doing it. You know, with this whole range of things is happening. Can you respond if there is warrant and, you know, biblically to the, the mandate to even respond, uh, to issues like this?
Speaker 1:Sure. Uh, we, and I'm speaking of the church, universal is called, um, by the Lord to be the city on the Hill, right. To be that light, uh, not covered, but shining in the room, uh, this, the salt of the earth and what God has done and the intention of what he's done in redeeming people before he would deems the world is to give them a preview of that eternal life. And so the church that should be its aim, uh, we should be the trailer right back when we could go to movies at the theater, uh, you know, to trailers would come out to excite you. Um, it wasn't the whole story. It was a glimpse of the story and made you want to experience the story and that's what the church should do. So in regard to, uh, racism or our, any issue that doesn't look like heaven, it's, it's the church's job to at minimum, uh, emulate what that eternal life looks like. And to also express the ministry of Christ, which extends that life to people who don't have that life. And so in our community, it should be an effort to try to facilitate a taste of that experience. And when it comes to racism and division, look at how the church started, right? You got 120 Jews in a room and the Holy spirit come, and what does the Holy spirit do? Enables them to speak the things of God, not in Aramaic. We can get all the Jews to come into the room, but in every language that happen to there in Jerusalem for Pentecost. And so you not only have Jews, but you have every Gentile, Prosser life. And so you got people who actually have, they never were from Judith. Cause they talked about, we hear them saying the things of God in our native thought, right? So I didn't grow up speaking Aramaic. So for whatever reason, I've come to believe in the God of the Jews. And that's why I'm here, but that's not my culture. And so it went from 120 people to 3000 and it was at least multiethnic on day one.
Speaker 2:Yeah. On day one,
Speaker 1:They want. And so how can we be comfortable, um, with either disunity or sense of division in the church? That's artificial, let me put it that way. I don't have a problem with a church reflecting its community and it in a homogenous community. Didn't, that's what it looked like. But if it, isn't not in a homogenous community, it ought to reflect his community. And uh, if it don't, if it does not, there's some artificial back that is definitely not super net. Cause we already see the model of how I started and the end of the book tells us had in every nation. And so definitely not God's will.
Speaker 2:So, uh, some people would say, okay, you're right. But we do that by preaching the gospel. What would be your response?
Speaker 1:I would agree with them. You preach the gospel, all of that away. Sometimes you speak, I don't remember who said it, it wouldn't be first. You might know better, but, but it's an everything. Um, it's in what we do and how we communicate, how we love our neighbor. And so, yeah, no, it's, it's not just, uh, preaching the gospel. I think ultimately you will preach in a sense of proclaim the gospel, but you exemplify the gospel as well.
Speaker 2:Hmm. I mean, I think those words are going to be helpful for some people because you know, we've kind of characterize the work that, uh, you are doing and attempting to do and others are doing, we call it the social. Uh, we even call it social justice or we call it the social gospel. And so man, just hearing how no, that, that that's part and parcel of the gospel definitely helpful.
Speaker 3:Um, so in light of all that we've seen and we've heard, where do we go?
Speaker 1:Sure. Uh, and I'm sharing with you my opinion now. Um, I really think there needs to be a focus. Um, at least to the, in my mind, the original issue, uh, would have to do with w which is connected with law enforcement and, uh, justly enforcing the law. Um, and not just in terms of race, that's what, uh, catalyze what's happening right now. But in every sense of the word, you know, that, that, that image we have of lady justice with the blindfold and the scale. Well, we know she can see through that blindfold. Right? See, she can see Brown scan through that map. And Brian, she can see a blue uniform through that blindfold. She can see money in your pocket through that black book, and we need the work to give her a new blank. And, and so that's where we start. I don't have a problem with addressing many of the other issues that are, uh, connected racism. But, um, once we remove the statues and the flags, which I think we should, the Confederate expressions of that, and we can talk about the other ones, but I do believe the Confederate expressions. I don't have a problem with you put them in the civil war museum and that sort of thing, but they shouldn't be in the city square, uh, uh, is having an enemy of the United States. It doesn't mean they will trade us, correct an enemy of the United States or people who, uh, bought into trees over the sake of, uh, maintaining slaves and the economic benefit from that, that we keep that in the public square. But aside from that, we get rid of all of that and we don't address, um, what happens in our justice system. We will be marching again, and we will always Mark until we at least get it fair. All of the progress we have made had it, it had the big 10, or I want to say begin, but manifest legally at some point in time, now there's a separate fight and trying to enforce that, but you have, you have to get it on the books. And until we get what we need on the books in regards to law enforcement and by extension our justice system, um, we're going to continue to have these these issues. And so we are, in my opinion, we have to focus there and try to identify the specific things that need to be in place so that, uh, law enforcement, which I tell people should be respected is also respectable
Speaker 2:Why this, this idea of law enforcement, because some people would say, well, we need to register more people to vote. Um, some people would, uh, would say, Hey, you know, we need to make sure that we destroy this system of systemic racism. I mean, you've heard some of these, um, uh, phrases or sayings. Uh, and so why have you decided law enforcement is the way to go with this particular issue?
Speaker 1:Great question. Uh, and cause it actually involves probably all of it. Um, the reason I say starting there a that's what if everything all be life and death, immediate life and death is involved there. Um, the restriction of freedom is connected there. When you talk about the incarceration of people or the abuse of people, um, that affects so many people, uh, and generations, families. And so we have to change that culture in order to change that culture you're going to need to not only be registered to vote. Let me tell you what is more of a emphasis for me is being an educated voter than just voting. All right. So let me just be real Frank, I'm an independent, I try to look at whoever and what they're running for. Uh there's times when I have voted conservative, you know? Yeah. There are times when that, when I don't. Um, but what I do is I try to educate myself about who's running. When you vote just strict, strictly party platform, people can get used to you being where you are. And so if I, I know you're going to vote for him and guess what, I'm going to put my attention on the people that might not vote for it. And so the changes that I implement are more about the people who might not vote, then the people who will always vote. And so if we're going to change anything, they got to start seeing it. So I might not vote for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, my wife, you live here will be straight. You're going to be parked. I got a go. I got to, uh, help other people to come into the game though. You're not leaving. You're not anywhere. No, I hear you bad. We tend to, we tend to put more effort and energy and the people we don't have, the people we have.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And so, you know, you know, I, you know, I'm not trying to say anything against the candidate and I'm only remarking what you said when he talked about, you know, if you don't vote for me, I'm talking about bike, but you're not black. Right. And is it, and he's actually articulating that the democratic candidate and most democratic president or candidates expect the black people to vote for this.
Speaker 2:He's always saying what's what, what the expectation is. We're hearing his honest opinion.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And, and, and it's true, right? Statistically is absolutely true. It's true. But at the same time, don't expect to see a whole lot of policy changes relevant to your area because you're not going anywhere. Right. I have to keep this, this demographic interested. And so those are the changes that you will see. So until we get to the place where we communicate that to the people that are running, you're not going to see anything different at the same time. So I don't want just people to vote. I want them to know from the ground floor, I need them to know what a control is before they vote for whatever the who's running for it. I need them to know what the rail commissioner does before they vote for who's running for real. Cause
Speaker 2:It is, that's how we got into this vote. It's not necessarily uneducated. They got a form magic, but educated about people that they're, I mean, I've seen so many little interviews that man had people maybe watch some of this before. They could see some patterns of behavior. But man, we, most people made the decision off reality TV show.
Speaker 1:That is correct. And brother, look here the same energy that we use in fine and whatever new store where the funny thing that we want to post on our social media, you can take that same 15 sec and find out who's running for the, I don't know, whatever court of appeals and who's running for da and who's running for County judge and everything else. We are times people vote, they vote by either party or last name or gender. Right. If you get tired of something, you know, I don't know. Maybe it has been a male figure there and you just ready for a change. There's a female voting. I mean, running, I'm just going to vote for it. I have no idea. So, so part of that is that the education, let me get to the last part about deconstructing the whole system, just the systemic racism. Here's the problem with that tearing down the house when you still in it. Okay. We're we are in the system, believe it or not. And to try to do it all at one time, um, we would in essence, destroy ourselves. And so you have to dismantle things piece by piece, and we can argue about which piece I'm only suggesting let's start with the justice system and very small, let's start with law enforcement and go from there.
Speaker 2:Uh, your background, your life story. Um, how does it inform your decision making about where do we go from here?
Speaker 1:And it's great. And I'm a tell you who it is is, uh, you know, moving out to the suburbs from Kashmir guard. Like I mentioned, uh, or we talked earlier about just some strange things I experienced, uh, just not exposed to the culture. Um, but there was a lot of isolation, um, you know, being the one black kid in the class and I was in like the accelerated GED class. So wouldn't, it might've been me and one other. Um, and so he would do things in school where you get into groups, you know, and you don't have a group, even though you're, you're kind of friends, even at the close friends. And so there's a lot of isolation. You feel isolated, um, even if you never experienced anything overtly negative, uh, because of who you are, there's just this kind of passive feeling that how that has shaped me is I always look, um, at the isolated person or people. Um, I'm always looking to try to bring people in because I know and have experienced that feeling of being the odd man out. It also shaped me into being exposed to the majority culture more than, uh, I'd say maybe definitely more than I would have grown up in Kasmin art. And so, and especially middle school, a lot of times middle school, you're trying to figure out who you are anyway. And so you, you, are you the only black kid everybody's listening to, I don't know, Def Leppard and journey. So, you know, MTV came out and you know, it, it wasn't anything else, but definitely, but in journey on TV. And so I, I I'm exposed to that. And some of it, I actually like, believe it or not. And then I had my, my, uh, KRS when public enemy rebound high school where I was man, look here, brother. I was straight, you know, motherland. Yeah. It was one of the, you know, I'm tired of compromising and, uh, you know, this. And so, but all of that has helped me to have perspective in a value for people, human beings, um, a sensitivity to difference and appreciation for difference. And so I try to consider, and sometimes I might over balance in some, some, some form of fashion, but when I see a one sided argument, even if it's, even if I'm kinda on that side, I can't help, but give a different perspective. And, and so the ways that helps me is in trying to reach those who are isolated, no matter which group they're in the places is, is it can be, as I mentioned, attention is, uh, not, uh, uh, is crediting the, the viewpoint of the other as well. So that, that has shaped me. And so I'm always looking,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Uh, uh, probably not in this conversation, but in a previous conversation, we've had you kind of outlined, uh, on a local level, how you think, uh, black folk and people who love black vote, uh, should shape policy on the local level. And you expound on that, on that idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So now is this in regards to law enforcement or wouldn't
Speaker 2:Yeah. You had this, uh, got a platform, got three bullet points and holding people accountable to three bullet points.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, so, yeah, and that was in, well, if it was in my mind, in regards to law enforcement, it was in idea of trying to do a better job of filtering the wrong people from going into law enforcement, supporting people while they're in law enforcement, so that they don't go wrong and then holding them accountable if they do go wrong. And so I don't have this view, um, that law enforcement by default is, is evil. I do think, uh, the way it is expressed and understood in our general culture is not. And let me, let me explain that, uh, uh, Chicago PD, I don't know if you've ever watched this show. I've seen it as pizza, Chicago PD, um, the lead character, I don't know his last name. His first name is Frank and Frank is one of those. I'm gonna get the job done. And if I got a rough you up along the way is okay. And so, because the criminal and on the show, we're comfortable with Frank roughing up, somebody picked up on the street, especially if it gives you information towards the big, bad guy. And in the narrative, the bad guys are always bad and we celebrate the bad guys, experiencing some justice. Now here's the problem with that. They experienced justice before they came before justice. And we're okay with that. And that is part of our American culture that we see expressed in the situation. And, and the problem is it as much as we think sometimes it's okay, it's never okay. Because our system says innocent until proven. Right? Right. So you got to treat me not as, you know, like Frank treats people on the street because we know that give, you gotta treat them like, do it such and such who we think no way they did. And so that system, we have to fix that mentality. So that's law enforcement in general, I'm not going into now. There's a whole nother level of who we assume to be guilt. Right. So, so the assumption of, of, uh, I'm just going to use, I'm going to exaggerate this just to illustrate the point. You know, so if I have brand picture bread, I just gave him that. And Brett is walking down the sidewalk at night and there's a phone call that there's a person, uh, of, of interest or suspicion in the neighborhood. And Brad is walking down the sidewalk. And on the other side is a surreal, I, and give you a picture, but you got it because of our culture. And because of the racist history, we all know who that person was probably calling in reference to, or at least we're going to assume. And, uh, and so that's a whole nother problem. That's a little bit harder to work out the system, but at least if we have the first problem out in that, I am expressing justice, justly, both people are respect. Does that make sense? That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Pen makes sense. And so, uh, when you, when you talk about, uh, electing local candidates and holding local candidates accountable,
Speaker 1:Yes. Okay. Yes, that'd be so, so yeah, in this regard, here's what everybody can do. Okay. The people on the local stuff, you can touch them, you can email them and it's a good shot. They'll they'll have at least have a representative respond to your email. All right. And you can email them. What are you going to do to improve our law enforcement system? You can send that email. You can copy what you sent in that one line and paste it in the next one. And then just like we use social media, but everything else it's okay for you to share with your circle
Speaker 2:Because they both they're public servant.
Speaker 1:Great. Here's what they told me. Or this one didn't even say anything. Guess what? Just like social media, we got it. Folks, you know, w we change and pancake boxes. You think you can't change a policy if I put heat on you. Cause I know exactly what you were saying about an issue I care about. Right. And I'm of the mindset, whoever does what I want in this particular. Cause I think it's so important. We all have, I guess some of our, our, our, our, uh, established things that we care about. We can't get everything we want. We have to prioritize. And if this is a hot button issue, we want to fix this one thing. This come together on this one thing and let's support the people who will do something about this one thing. And if you will support, I'm going to out cross over whatever I normally go with and go with you to get this one thing changed. And if you don't, I will go back on the other side to get you out. I'm going to fire you. I'm not going to passively not vote. I'm going to vote against you. And I promise you in an, in, in, within two election cycle, no more than two, if we did that, we would see change.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Uh, what would you say to pastors of churches that are mostly majority? You, you run into them all the time. Their congregations may be skiddish about some of this. How would you, uh, what would you suggest they do to handle, um, this race issue and, uh, bring that church along with it?
Speaker 1:Well, we got to talk about it. Like I say, the, the, the issue of racism within the church is sin. Okay. I mean, it's sin in general, but it is, it is capital is sand within the church. And so this is where we deal with hearts and mindset. So within the church, you deal with a deeper level stuff. We can't deal with the deeper level stuff in society, in a, in an instance. Yeah. But within the church, you can articulate from the word of God, how this is a sin and we gotta treat it like a sin. That means wherever we have been party to it, we have to repent. And we also won't tolerate it when it's expressed around it. That's one piece. So we've got to deal with the sin of racism and then we have to deal with the con you know, the issue of ignorance. So, you know, when you deal with different cultures, there's an ignorance. Um, there are things that you're not exposed to when we make these judgements based on our ignorance. And so that's gone to call for some intentional relationship built. And so when I moved out here, uh, to pear land, you know, there's, there's towns, I'm in Brazoria County, apparently in, is in Brazoria County. And it's on the Northern side that matter of fact, the Northern most community of Brazoria County. And there are some small towns in Brazoria County. I never even heard of. I'm just going to be Frank. And I'm gonna tell you right now, there are parts of places that look here, you know, as they talk about sun down,
Speaker 2:Some damn places in Missouri
Speaker 1:And have historically been, but I can tell you, I actually have more relationships, um, in the sense of, uh, the deepest, isolated parts of Brazoria County than then I had with different people, even in Harris County, in the Houston area. It's because I've intentionally tried to make a relationship. I've done stuff I've never done before. I, I, I really have never known hunting. And so I apologize to any, uh, viewer that, that is, uh, this can't handle that. Or if you're vegan, I apologize to you, but I have been hunting. And, and, and it was to build relationship and, and we can have these talks. So when this thing happened with George Lloyd, it was an interesting dynamic because I would hear or see on social media people posting, well, where are the white pastors about this? How come white churches aren't saying anything. It, and I was saying it left and right. Pastors was calling me up and down apologizing to me. I'm like, man, it wasn't your knee. Yeah. I appreciated it because they were recognizing that there needs to be a change. And they were sharing with me. I don't even know what to do, asking me for help, but none of that would've happened if I hadn't, if I didn't have the relationship. And so I've had dinner with these guys, they've been to my house, I've been to their house and you know, people in Texas or it's to create, you don't even know,
Speaker 2:I don't know where the Creek is,
Speaker 1:But, um, I've been there and, and fellowship with the, these men, they, you know, wives know each other. And so when these things start to happen and people were saying, they're not seeing it it's because they didn't have any relationships in that regard. And so I could speak to that at the same time, whenever I saw negative stuff on, um, uh, you know, that part of, I guess my, my relationship circle, I was able to address it. Cause it wasn't like stranger black pastor or black man that was responding. Right? Oh, that's Chris. I went hunting with last year. And so if we would be intentional that's, I mean, if you think about what Jesus did, that's what that's the incarnation, right? Incarnation is, I'm going to do what I need to do to build a relationship with you, even though you don't deserve. And so I'm going to love you where you are. I'm going to come to be where you are. Like you are to be where you are. So, so why so that you can be where I am. And so that's what we, that's what I've tried to do and I encourage people to do. Um, and that will make a difference, a genuine belief.
Speaker 2:And this, this is, this is good stuff. Uh, man, last words, anything that you want to add or man wanna include, uh, in this man, this is great conversation, I think is going to bless a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Let me just, just the, the bottom line, you know what I'm speaking, just from what, what Christ has done in my life. I am the service that was forgiving of the great debt. And if you know the story of the unmerciful servant, when he found a fellow servant, I love that it's a fellow therapist. It's not a servant of the service. It's a fellow servant. That's one piece of application. Some people may think of the other as a servant of themselves, we will fill a service. Um, but when that other servant wasn't dead, it, uh, to here he mistreated and he wanted him to be punished for his evil, but the master saw a greater injustice. When the forgiven servant didn't forget the servant who received mercy did not extend mercy. And so as a, you know, people can remember if they're in Christ, who they are in Christ and it sees their obligation that it is, it is right for them to extend mercy. If people need to reframe social justice in that frame, you can do that. It is an extension of mercy. It is our obligation because we have received mercy and great words, great words, man, where can people find you and brother, you know, like the world I'm online now, but our website, uh, the way of by Thursday, that cop, and of course, and on social media, um, we also have an app on your app. So, but that's where we are right now at the time being man, thank you for your time and your words. I mean, you bless me tremendously, just, uh, sitting here, listening to this conversation and that, thank you. Thank you, bro.[inaudible].