Kinfolk
Kinfolk
Season 2, Episode 3: "Calling" with Stephen G. Butler
Stephen G. Butler has served as a grant writer, community organizer, and is now an Assistant Dean at the Oklahoma City University School of Law. Most importantly, Stephen has been a great friend since our college days at Oklahoma State University. Through his calling, Stephen has worked to create solutions to solve problems like access to healthcare, the subprime mortgage crisis, and has developed projects to address the challenges facing public schools. To Stephen, your calling isn’t limited to just one vocation. Join us as we talk to Stephen about what it means to be committed to your calling from season to season.
Okay, kinfolk folk. How are you today, man? I've got Steven G
Speaker 2:Look with me. We're going to have a conversation around calling. Let me let you know a little bit about Stephen man. Right now. He is a fundraiser at the Oklahoma city university law school. He's been there since 2016. He supervises law school, fundraising, alumni engagement, marketing events. Uh, he was formally the director of law associates at Pepperdine university. Uh, previously he was a grant writer and organizer. He was like a real life. Barack Obama for the industrial areas foundation in Los Angeles in Dallas, uh, where he worked with partners, churches, and other, um, organizations in the community to create solutions to the lack of healthcare options. In South Los Angeles, he dealt with the subprime mortgage crisis and challenges facing public schools. And as an organizer, he worked with the leader of the Massachusetts based algebra project and Los Angeles unified school district to create an algebra project cohort cohort at the Crenshaw high school. Man, we're going to talk about, uh, all of that, um, as we deal with Colin, but first let me introduce to you, uh, introduce us, um, and, uh, reintroduced to other Steven G. Butler. Steven what's up, man. Good to see you Patrick. Long time, long time, long time, man. Um, man, I, we want to set up this conversation around the idea of calling Genesis a one and 28 from the Bible talks about being fruitful. Well he tells Adam, Hey man, listen, this is what I want you to do. I want you to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth. Well, most of us understand being fruitful. Multiply. If you got two kids, like my brother, uh, does, and I was about to let one go, if you might have one on the way like myself, I'm blessed. Hopefully my wife does it edit this, but Hey man, I can't let us to me right now. Uh, I feel good about it. I don't know what the sex is by the way. Um, but um, we can talk about that too. Uh, so, uh, we had so happy about this vet. I was like, okay so sorry. So we know that it Genesis one 28, um, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth. We know that being fruitful, multiply beings, having kids, but we always skip that next little phrase, which is, and feel the earth. We know it can't mean have more babies cause he just told you be fruitful, multiply. So that's gotta be about kids, but what's this field, the earth. And if you read the context and we ain't got a bunch of time, what he's essentially saying is take this raw material of the garden. Uh, cause Adam is, uh, is, uh, is a gardener. He's a husband, uh, you know, in the classical sense of the word and in the modern sense of the word, take the raw materials of this world. And I want you to cultivate take this garden and turn it into a paradise, take this garden and feel the earth, take this garden, the raw materials of the gifts and skills and talents I've given you and make a kingdom out of it, Adam. And so that mandate does it just go for Adam? It goes to all Adam's descendants through Jesus Christ and so that we all have callings and all have a divine gift responsibility that God has placed in us. And it's not just for the folk who preach and teach on Sundays. So we're with my brother and I want to examine his calling. So, um, you know, be it accounting or Archer, archery or artistry, these are all important because so many people think that you're just called to work in a church. And that, um, the other things that people do are just quote unquote jobs. And so I want to, uh, go to my brother and asked him the first question do you feel called and why? Yes, I do feel called. Um, it's not necessarily vocation. So, you know, I haven't worked with Catholic parishes in my organizing days. You know, I am familiar with vocation and how we've taken that into a job when it, when it really means so much more. But I do feel, uh, called in what I do because so much of what I do is, uh, how God has built me right in that I am a social person. Uh, and fundraising allows me to be social, allows me to be strategic. It allows me to do, uh, the work of helping people, right. Um, you can have a great project or a great cause. Um, but without the money, uh, if it falls by the wayside, right? Uh, and I'm forgetting the poly line about that in his beautiful struggle album where he talks about, you know, great, you know, you got these great non-profits, but they have no idea about how to raise money. And so it's done for man. You can have vision, but you need provision behind.
Speaker 3:And that, that is
Speaker 2:Good one. Right. Um, so yes, first off I do feel called, uh, in what I do and I'm thankful for it because of all the things that I did before, uh, law school, um, community organizing and, and meeting with people and doing individual meetings and learning about their self-interest are things that I use in, in this, you know, season right now. It's funny, as you were talking about calling, I was like, man, part of me is feeling like, do we take this a whole other direction? Because I'm just looking at listening to what you're talking about, how God tells us to, to, uh, be fruitful, uh, fill the earth. Um, but at that time, the, the, the context was the garden of Eden and just how, um, mean God being omniscient and existing outside of time and space, you know, speaking beyond what that was existed. Right. And okay. Be, you know, uh, be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth. Right. But, but God,
Speaker 3:We, we talking about this garden, I'm looking
Speaker 2:At this. I can, I mean, we now
Speaker 3:Know how big the earth is
Speaker 2:And not withstanding God's ability. So was he going to
Speaker 3:Expand the garden of Eden at the fall
Speaker 2:Didn't happen. And so the gardening,
Speaker 3:It goes beyond Africa and it goes into your Asia and Alaska and North and South Korea,
Speaker 2:Erica, or it's guys saying, yeah, it'd be fruitful, multiply because y'all gonna mess this up. Yeah. And this command then speaks to go forth and make disciples, which y'all are going to get in a few millennia later. Right. You know what I mean? You see, it just, it builds out itself and it's like, wait, he, he's not that that command hasn't stopped happening. And it doesn't, and it's even extra Christian, uh, regardless of Christianity, whether you believe in Jesus or not, right. Every time somebody has a child, every time a scientist comes up with a new development, every time a new organization is born and it's thriving, literally echoing doing, you know, the fruitful, multiply and feeling, right. The only difference is, are you going to give them the credit or not? But we all do it. Yeah, no. I mean, so it was funny. And then we will go wherever you, I mean, cause you've got a vision in the, in the podcast and you're curating and you're, there are things that you're, that you're seeking to, to lift up and, and there's a trajectory for, but as you were saying, this, I'm like, man, that's a whole other word right there. Just the omniscience of God and just how the pro funder the, of his wisdom, right. Like go multiply and fill the earth. But all you know of earth is the garden of Eden. Right. And you know, in a few years, right, you gonna have these kids, uh, or not even a few years, like we don't know how long, how long that period of time was between this command in the fall. Right. And dah, dah, dah, all these things that come afterwards. But right now let's go ahead and fill the earth and I'm gonna give you some more later once you can handle that. Right. And that's, that seems to speak to you in a certain way. I mean, what, what, what are you feeling when you hear that? Um, I just, I, uh, I've been thankful. I've been fortunate and I'm thankful for what God has given me because yes, I come out of the Christian tradition and the Baptist tradition. Right. But I've worked with Catholics, I've worked with other Protestant denominations. I've worked with, with, um, with, uh, people, the, of Judaism and the Abrahamic faith. Um, my father-in-law and his wife are, uh, Muslim. And so I've, I've, I've have all these things around me. Right. Your grandfather was a preacher too, right? No SU no, my grandfather wasn't. Um, my, I have one grandfather, my mother's father who was a deacon. And then my father's father, uh, was definitely not a preacher, but was a man who, um, made some changes in his life later on. Um, just you talk about my stubbornness, my son's stubbornness, uh, my grandfather on my father's side, who was the one I was really close to, uh, had cancer, fought cancer a couple of times and, uh, was a smoker and dropped cold Turkey back in like 1988 or so, because he said he wanted to see me and my sister grow up to be adults, just, I want to see them live. Right. So I'm gonna stop smoking that ain't typically the type of thing that people just be like, yeah, I'm going to get rid of these cools or these Charleston's or whatever it was back in the day. Cause I remember going to the store, walking to the store with him and Tyler attaches to get their cigarette T and my grandmother. And he said, you know, the guy get this cancer. I want to live and, and cold Turkey. So definitely a man who believed in God and, um, and, and, and was faithful but not approved. Uh, uh, cause I want to get into more into your background and trying to understand, you know, why you, you know, the different avenues you went, what was it? Um, what did you, when, when you first, uh, thought about what you wanted to do with your life way back in, you know, elementary school doing your high, whenever that happened for you, what did you want to do? I wanted to be a stockbroker because my father threw that out there. So I have the multiple influences in my life. My father and my mother are the biggest ones parents divorced in 1989, but I remember being, uh, mid eighties. Um, my father mentioned him being a stockbroker. And so, uh, that was something that stayed with me. And, uh, you know, later on, it's funny, I want it to be a standup comedian and I used to watch the Def jam when I probably shouldn't have been shouldn't have been like, so from the very first season with Martin and you know, him blowing up while he was doing Def comedy jam and having this television show, uh, I remember watching Sinbad's, uh, brain damage and son of a preacher, man. I just loved comedy. Right. So these various iterations. Right. But graduating high school. Um, did you ever, before you go, did you ever do stand up? Did you ever? No. No, but every once in a while I'll think like, man, if I had to put together a little set, what would I go with? You know, what I want to joke on? Did you ever try set? No. No, I haven't. What was funny is, uh, our mutual friend, Tim and I talk about that sometimes. Right. And then I listened to these podcasts. Matter of fact, when I was driving into Euston yesterday, um, I was listening to a Mark Mirren interview, Eddie Murphy. Right. So, uh, I still love, love comedians and just, uh, I guess to some extent I'm still a student of comedy. Right. So, uh, I think we all enjoy laughing. Right? So even in my engagement in talking with folks, uh, in raising money, right. Um, you know, people give to causes, they give to vision and they give to people. Right. And uh, if I can give you a good feeling about what you're giving money to, right. Um, that's worthwhile, that's useful. So, uh, thought about that for a while. Never acted on it, uh, got to O U M uh, decided to, to, uh, get a finance degree. And which is what I eventually did. I'm one of those people who never changed his major though, we know, especially with you and your friends in engineering, the people who started out in NASBE and then like now, whatever it is, whatever, um, right. Just because Thermo or P chem or organic was hot, whatever it was. So the finance was that connected to stockbroking or yeah. Yeah. Um, my, my dad, I remember him giving a book, giving me a book, which I'm sure somewhere, either in my house, my mom's house or, uh, in a storage unit on finance. And, uh, I just never changed my degree. You know, a couple of years in, I knew I was going to law school cause I had a bunch of friends who were interested in politics and we did student government and, uh, I looked around and this is the era of Clinton. And, um, course, you know, Clinton was a lawyer, a lot of senators and house members were lawyers. And then of course the, the judiciary, a lawyer. So I thought that's where you want to create change and to have power right. Going to law school was worthwhile, but I just maintained and got my, uh, finance degree though. I wish I had gotten more out of it. I kind of tuned out after my sophomore year into my junior year, uh, was much more focused on extra curricular and, and um, student organizations. But no, I can still Lee's know that there's a cap M theory and, and various economic theories, uh, though I, so, uh, they don't have a huge amount of relevance to my, my current life. Interesting. Because you know, when you talked about stockbroking and finding, I was thinking about the fact that you're from Tulsa and black wall street. I don't know why that popped up in my mind. No, it's crazy. Uh, being from Tulsa, um, and of course Tulsa is getting a lot more, uh, visibility now, thanks to watch men and this being the hundredth anniversary in a few months, but you know, the amount of people who left Halsa, um, that have, that are just changing the world are doing amazing things out in the world. Uh, but have roots back in Tulsa is crazy, right? Like John Rogers in Chicago who runs Ariel investments, Mellody Hobson CEO, and, you know, married to George Lucas, but right. But he, his roots go back to Tulsa and his great grandfather leaving grandfather, great-grandfather leaving as a result of 1921 and the massacre. So it's funny. Dad just wanted me, uh, coming from East Texas of limited means, uh, he was an engineer. He was a civil who quickly, um, moved into management because he saw that's where, uh, there was money to be made, not necessarily in the engineering, but in the management of engineers, um, later went on to get his MBA. Um, he figured that would be a way that I could have financial means and financial independence. And so I listened to him and, uh, that was my major. And then, uh, you went to law school there, the university of Oklahoma, uh, automatic. How was that? I was good, man. How did that shift your perspective about, uh, what you felt like you would call to do man? Oh, you was phenomenal from the relationships in the peep. Right. And a couple of the professors, I still keep in contact with, um, a mentor of mine. Uh, Dr.[inaudible] was, um, incredible, still prays over my life and my family and I pray for her. Um, Jay Tony is one of my closest friends. It's funny. We went to high school together, went to college together, but it was because we were law school classmates that we really became close and a number of others, but OU was, was incredible because he gave me an, a knowledge of the law, um, and a foundation. Uh, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I thought I wanted to make money and help people. Those were my two goals. Right. So then I had no, not always hand in hand and not always hand in hand, but I was like, you know, uh, Willie, Gary, Johnnie Cochran being cropped right here. I didn't know how it was the male, but there was a way to make money. I didn't need Willie Gary's jet, but like, if there was a way I could make money and help people, that's what I wanted to do. Uh, and then came out and, uh, I didn't go to the firm that I had clerked at, um, just because I didn't want to be in Tulsa and make that money. So I came down to Houston, um, to live with mom and figure it out where, where, you know, where I'm actually the same place where I'm taping this now, uh, out in Katy and, uh, had taking the Oklahoma bar to the Texas bar. And, um, ultimately decided that I didn't want to practice law because I got involved with community organizing through my church with, I, uh, found the industrial areas, man, let's slow down real quick. What you, okay, so your home, uh, and I remember this time because you know, that, that was the time we were all hanging and we were all in the same circles. It was good for man. It was great fun. One of the funniest times. Yeah. It was just, it was crazy. You know, it's like you all, you think, man, once you leave college, you're never gonna see be in the same place with most of these people. But Houston offered the opportunity for us as young men Campbell. It was here. Tim came in from, from Kansas city and Matt Courtney. Um, Steven was a, I mean, good hope was just a launching pad. We were getting that good word from pastor Coalfield. And then he had like, uh, passed a cow home, coming off the bench had Clemons coming off the bench. I mean, it was that's crazy, bro. And when, you know, a lot of times when we say a bunch of talent, I think it was more than that. It was like, it was community, right? Yes. That happened to be talented and extraordinary guys going off to do some, some amazing things, but, and people who education or not. Right. Cause you had Mack and Jamil incredibly high educated. Right. But then it'd be somebody who just like grew up in Houston and, and just wanted to like get down and, and spread the gospel. Right? Yeah. It was, it was just cool. There was no like, you know, you know, as, as you know, being 41, now that's hard to do to, to bring what we, you know, forget outside of race. I think the class thing is hard to bring together. It's like people eat, you know, we always couch it in. Well, I really liked to do certain things and they don't like to do the things I do. And it's just like, right guys, we all kind of like going in the same direction. You know, you try to recapture what you, what you've seen and what you heard and what you know, could be possible because you lived it. Well, think about what we had at ODU. And I, again, I don't mean many of us who talk about what the nineties meant at you, right? Yeah. But you had the changing of the academic standards from the 22 to like a 26 or something. Right? Like in the midst of that, you had people that were coming from, you know, Oakland coming from Tulsa, North Tulsa, reseals, Northeast, Oklahoma city, Morris park, Oklahoma city, right. Um, Richardson. It was Missouri city. It was, it was the tray, it was war acres. It was all that coming to, Oh, you at the same time, little rock, North little rock, whatever suburb. And it was a lot of people who had education and had scores or right. May not have had scores under this new regime under these new standards, but just all coming together to have a good time. And some of us graduate, most of us graduated, whether it took us some time or not some of us didn't, but it was just good, fun. Right. In what you're describing, like what we had in Houston was a lot of folks under that same type of, uh, situation, but who were like, you know, wanting to get together, find a spouse, hang. Um, but, uh, education or not just like was Jesus like brought a lot of us together, you know, you know it, man, it's crazy. I reminiscent on all of this. So, you know, back to the, to the question, what, in that time made you shift from looking for the, the law firm job to I'm fitting to be the Barack Obama, because literally bro, by the time you were doing your thing, Barack was doing his, I don't know if he's ever saw the parallels and similarities. I always, so a guy named Lawrence tolerber who was my barber in Los Angeles. Right. Who is the man? Uh, Mr. Tall over had bill Bratton come through his shop, had Charlie back. Like it was a right. It's like a Rite of passage, uh, for you, if you're a political or official in Los Angeles, Mr. Todd lover, uh, is somebody you come to see. And, um, I met him during my organizing days, the end of my organizing days in Los Angeles. And you know, you're Barbara, you talk and whatnot. And he was like, Oh, you Obama you a young Obama. Right. Cause this is 2009. So this is after the election. And so that's just what, what he does. And I was like, Mr. Tolerant, no. So president Obama went to organizing then went to law school. Right. I went to law school then got into community organizing and I have no desire to go into electoral politics. That's just not what I, what I want to do, but that didn't stop Mr. Tall. Right. So I mean, it just was what it was, but no, I, um, I loved politics from an early age man, so right. Um, I'm this 10 who also be a stockbroker, who's reading the newspaper. Right. Uh, in the morning, like eating breakfast. Cause my parents subscribed to the paper. I still subscribed to it. I subscribed to it online. Um, and that's the challenge, right? I'm gonna just let you know, how do you get your kids to love to read when you read on your phone? Right. So they think you're neglecting them, but
Speaker 3:No I'm reading the Washington post I'm reading. Right. I'm reading it all month.
Speaker 2:I'm just, you know, so same thing just on, on uh, Instagram. No, I'm, I'm reading my Bible.
Speaker 3:No, I was on Instagram, you know, 15 minutes ago. But right now I'm trying to figure out, you know, if we're going to get any of the stimulus money or not. Right.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, no, it, it, I was the kid who loved reading. Right. So I was paying attention to the IRA, you know, uh, clashes with, you know, in the eighties. And that just, I just loved politics, man. Uh, in what organizing? Um, no of no offense to law school or any of the other education that I received. Right. I received some of the best education that you can get like my high school. Right. I'll put up against any high school in the country, particularly when we were there because we were the first high school in the state to have the eight to have the IB program. We also had a, B uh, AP, and then at the same time, right. I've got super bowl champions, uh, and you know, NBA champions or whatever coming out of my high school. Right. Um, you could go and for the IB diploma or you could be shooting dice. Right. You know, whoever, right. It was, it was a worldly experience. So no one of my good friends I keep in contact with is the grandson of a us Senator. Right. Who's quadruple Stanford. I used to say he was triple Stanford. He's like, no, no, no, I'm actually quadrupled me. Not, you know what I mean? You just joking with me. Right. So I got the chance to meet incredible people, um, and, and have this amazing, uh, experience in organizing it will. I was going to say
Speaker 3:In, in high school[inaudible],
Speaker 2:But my organizing experience taught me how the world works. Uh, and that, that is incredible. I will always credit the I a F uh, being able to work in Dallas and then, you know, um, South central, um, with just teaching me things that I would not have learned. Otherwise I still take with me to this day, when you say, um, teach a organizing, taught you how the world works, what do you mean by that? Right. So, um, in, I F organizing, we talk about the world as it is versus the world as it should be. Right? So I'm in South central or South LA, right. Seeing the greatest, um, decimation right. Of black wealth that hopefully we will ever see in our time in 2000, uh, seven, eight, nine, 10, right. As people who came from Mississippi, um, Georgia, Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma, like my family in the 1940, 50, 60 seventies who, um, bought into the American dream or this idea of the American dream and are living in, uh, South LA or Inglewood or Hawthorne or Compton, um, Linwood wherever, and are losing their home. Right. Because of, uh, the subprime mortgage prices and the bad loans that ESA signed up for. Um, but there were factors that, um, the deck was stacked against, uh, right. Um, at the time, you know, 1970 wages has essentially stagnated from like for a 30 year period from the, from the late seventies, but in, um, you know, Southern California real estate was a sure bet. And so if your, you know, 40, 50 years old, um, and you got aging parents and you need to take care of them, but you've also got, you know, these kids who are trying to go to college and you need money for that. Um, or you need to pay private school tuition because you don't feel that the school district is the best bet for your kids. Um, where are you going to get the money from that? And a lot of people took it out of their home, right? So you would think that, uh, our government are, um, uh, it's in the public's interest to help people stay in their loans. So we actually put forward a plan that we brought to the California housing finance agency and others that said, you know what? You can go and have the government taken interest in these people's homes. Right. And once the property, uh, re bounces back, right. And they gain the equity back because these people don't want to move. They're not flippers. They just want to be able to stay in their homes and know that they're not going to get foreclosed on. Let's go ahead, allow these people to stay in their homes. And then right, whenever the, the house appreciates and it ever is sold in 10, 15, 20 years, we can go and, um, like sharing the equity of that. Right. Um, but let's help out these homeowners and government said, nah, we're not trying to do that. We're going to give the money to these banks. Um, we're going to put them through these stress tests and yada yada yada. And so the homeowners, the people who needed the help the most didn't get it. Right. Uh, that was a lesson in how power works, how money works, how this country works, that you're not going to get, uh, in law school. Right. Um, and so we worked on that. We also worked on, like you said, the algebra project, what is that? So the algebra project is, is brilliant, uh, at its core. It is the idea, uh, the initial concept came from Bob Moses who, uh, one of my personal heroes was organizing in the Mississippi Delta with Fannie Lou Hamer, um, uh, Ella Baker and others who, you know, we talk about Dr. King and what he did for the civil rights movement and it, and he did great things, but it was, there were local generals on the ground, you know, generals, lieutenants that were doing that hard work, the hard and slow and patient work of organizing to bring voting rights. And, uh, and, uh, he was one of them, right. Uh, Bob went down there and left his studies in New York and organized, and in Mississippi, um, later, uh, went to Africa and spent some time and, um, came back to the States and came up with something called the algebra project, which is an experiential learning model that helps students who are behind and in grasping math concepts and teaches them how to, to, uh, learn energies and math and algebra, um, based upon their lived experience. Right? So when we did this with Crenshaw, we created a number line by going and taking students down to, I don't know if in LA, if it's central station, union station, whatever, uh, and just took a ride on their red line and marked out the different stops. And then when we went back to class later, we, we mapped it out based upon those stops so that they didn't understand X, Y coordinates on a theoretical terms. It was something that they had done in living it out, right. Because, um, every kid, everybody has the ability to learn the question is, are we willing to take it to, to where their, their level of understanding, right. A good friend of mine, uh, Anthony Madox, uh, is a professor, just one of the smartest people I know, know studied artificial intelligence right now, his job at USC and the Rossier school is teaching teachers how to teach. But he pointed out to me, you know, we're in the 21st century using a 19th century education model. We know every kid doesn't learn the exact same way. The problem is, um, our unwillingness to invest in other education models that fit kids and meet them where they are. Right. And he told me this like 10, 12 years ago, right. That we're in the 21st century using, uh, a 19th century, uh, education model. What's crazy about what you said. And, and that I, um, just picking up, they basically were trying to, we teach in abstractions and theory and, and, and conceptual ideas, which, and it's funny, we measure intelligence on that too, but I'm like, what do you mean? We don't teach babies. Babies. Don't learn that people don't actually learn and ideas, concepts, and extractions. They learn in country realities. A baby knows that that not because they understand the representation of work, but because she, she or he is looked at you, you know, your kids looked at, you heard somebody say some sounds and then attach the sound to the concrete reality of daddy. Right. And that's how they learn, man. That's crazy that we still have this, this system that only works for a few and not for everyone, let, let's take it even further. Right. We say, God is love you. Don't just sit that on a Christian and be like, all right, now, go run with that. Right. You say, okay, now, how did your parents love you? Right. God teaches us through. He, we call him father because that's something we can grasp our mind around. How does a father and a mother, how do your parents, you know, love you. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not what we do in our educational system. No, no, no, no. And then, and then we hold it against those who don't, who don't grasp, man. And it's crazy. And so this project was, uh, I mean, how did w how, how does organizing tie into this project? So the project is phenomenal, but if you don't have people in the district who are willing to champion it, um, like many programs, it has a limited shelf life or limited ability to get off his feet. So we were hired or contracted to, uh, be the organized, to do the organizing work, to allow it, to gain its foothold in the district. And so I was, uh, assigned to Crenshaw high school, to work with the teachers, uh, and, and families there as well as to help do some of the political work at Beaudry to make sure that, uh, LA USD allow the, the system to grow and to thrive, man, I th that's for now. So, you know, you, you hit on something half, the great ideas that we have, and we come up with, I'm just kinda tying the fact that the idea is one thing, but the execution and the buy-in, well, no, the buy-in as is needed to execute the, execute, those ideas. Most of us don't have the ability to get the buy-in. We got the program, we know how to execute it. Maybe we saw it somewhere else. And so organizing as a principle, as a reality is something that man, you know, so, so, so let's tie this back. Um, Oh, let's talk about black lives matter movement. Okay. Let's let's just talk about this. Okay. Uh, we got the ideas there's. I mean, I can go to the website there's platforms. So some people will say, it's good. These ideas are good. These ideas are bad, but I'm just saying, yeah, these are ideas. Do you think that organizations like that and many others have the ability to take those ideas, get, buy in and get people to execute potentially. Yes, but here's the deal. Are we talking black lives matter? Black lives matter movement? Are we talking black lives matter? The organization, two totally different things, right? Yeah. Go to the website. That's the black lives matter organization. Black lives matter movement is I think much larger than the organization. Uh, and so any of us can be like a member of that, right. Because we believe if you believe that black lives matter, right. You're part of the black lives matter movement. Now there's the actual organization that has chapters and has its own. Um, has it, um, no, I guess mission and whatnot that are, that are somewhat intertwined. Right. And they came from the same place, but there are two different things, right? Yeah. So what would you, if someone's called you Stephen, the organizer, when Stephen was organized on now and said, Hey, can you help us? Somebody from BLM said, Hey, can you help us? What would be the first couple of things you would say to them? Well, let's sit down and talk, right? Because, so for the industrial areas foundation and its affiliates, right. Our organizations, whether it's TMO in Houston or Dallas area, interfaith in Dallas or one LA in Los Angeles or voice in Oklahoma city, which, um, you know, my PTA is a member of, right. Our goal is to build power and many of us, right. Myself included shirt, somewhat from the idea of, I want power. Right. But that the word power, like in Spanish or there, right. It just simply means to be able to, I can, I can act, right. So why would you not want power? Right. You think about the, the, the, someone who completely lacks power, that's an infant. They, they can't, they can't do anything for themselves. They, they literally, as you will learn soon enough, right? The only thing you don't have to teach a child to do is cry in urinate. They don't have the ability to poop. They don't have the ability to eat. They don't have the ability to sleep. Right. Who wants to be in that state. Right. We want to be able to have power and to be able to act. And so what I have organizations are looking for is the ability to build power and you get power in our minds from one or two forms, organize people and organize money. And most of us don't have a lot of money, but we do have the ability through our networks and our relationships to organize a ton of people. And so that's, so if BLM were to come to me and say a, uh, light to join or work with you, um, well, let's have a conversation because these are the things, this is what organizing looks like for us. These are our goals. We focus on the things that unite us, right? Quality schools, um, uh, good jobs, paying jobs that, you know, support, uh, quality infrastructure, right? Um, safe neighborhoods, um, you know, uh, the ability to not get shot in the street by police, you know, so I think there is, there, there might be some things we can come together on and work around right now we can discuss tactics and all that, that can come later. But are these things that are interesting to you? Um, are you willing to do the work to find other people within your organization that wants to do this? Because as opposed to the idea of the charismatic leader organizing is about people recognizing their own agency and being able to, um, uh, have some say in their lives and, and to, you know, to work, to create change with other people, um, in our minds, organizing is critical to the democratic traditions because it's, you know, Patrick and Stephen coming together and saying, you know what, we don't fully agree on all of this, but I'm willing to work with you around the safe drinking water. If you're willing to work with me on getting some speed, uh, some road humps to make sure that people don't come flying up and down our street. Right. And through that, you build power and you build, um, you build, um, common cause and people working to come together and to have civil discourse, to have a common conversation, man, uh, w we're going to have more of this conversation offline. Cause I, I, there's something about this that I feel like, I feel like, whatever, right now we need more, we, the country needs more organization. Yeah. Totally agree. You know, and you know, and the process of organizing would probably bring some people together. Yeah, totally agree. The, the challenge is, um, you know, particularly in, I won't say, yeah, I'll say this, what, what I found the challenge to be in my organizing, um, as an African-American, uh, in so many churches, right? Pastors not being willing to one have allow their leaders like their lay leaders to have a role in this work, because, and again, I come from the Baptist tradition right. Where you really got a fiefdom that you can be squeezed to your child regardless of what their educational credentials or whatever, but let's go back to Collin, whatever their calling may be. Right. It's not the ecclesiastical system where the Bishop moves, whoever, which, you know, has its own challenges. Right. But it's like, Oh yeah, pass the data to the senior, leaves it to pass it to the junior right. In there it is. And so having other voices come to the table and say, um, yes, pastor, this is what we want to do. And we want the church to invest some dollars. And us being part of this organization where, you know, we work with other congregations and other institutions in our city and in our community to create change, unfortunately, that does, that does not happen as much right. In the African-American church, but it needs to right. Because really it hearkens back to that civil rights tradition that, that we, uh, no of SCLC and Snick and right. Uh, yeah. We know John Lewis and we know Diane Nash and, and Bernard Lafayette and James bevel and Mary and burying. But there were a number of leaders that are unsung, right. That were at, at going to the Highlander school and we're learning, uh, these traditions and we're just doing their part. Right. And they were all leaders in their own way, but we S we've reduced it to Malcolm and, or not Malcolm Martin and his, his cabinet when that, and we do it in injustice. Right. Yeah. Well, I, I think that's a lack of, you know, these are easy categorizations that allow people well, allow people who we don't want to be curious to be able to say, ah, I know about the civil rights school. Yeah, man. It's crazy. I recommend to anybody who has a chance read David Halberstam's the children, it isn't credible. Right. Okay. I'm going to take, I'm going to read it as well. I'm going to do some little light real quick and then we'll get back to it. Uh, just what you hear answer. All right. All right. Scale of one to 10. How good are you at keeping secrets? Um, maybe a five. Okay. Ariel or Jasmine? Um, area. Okay. First celebrity crush. Brandy, maybe Brandy. Norwood. Yes. Okay. All right. Down the street from them in Carson, but neither here nor there. My family is, my family is huge. Like, I didn't know it at the time, but I, yeah. I've heard I've got Ray Jay stories. Right. So, okay. Okay. So y'all beat y'all might be kicking y'all are close. Not though. Okay. Donna dusk, Don. Okay. Why Don? Uh, when we were online, uh, it gave me an appreciation for getting up early man. And I liked being ahead of the day. It's one of the things I hated about being on the West coast because you're two to three hours behind the action. And so I believe it's very important to have a plan and have an idea of what you want to do for the day, because the day is going to hit you in the face. Regardless, you gotta be ready for it. It's the, if you could travel back in time, which period would you go to? Um, probably the, either the time we were talking about or, uh, just, Ooh, man. It was, I mean, I, I, I see just the way my mind works. Right. So you've got a responsibility and, um, you've got, uh, not, I don't want to say accountability, but it's, it's, it's, um, your access right? To, to, to, I mean, in like 18, 19, 20, 21 is like that period where you've got the ability to do a lot of stuff, but not be necessarily hold accountable and have those mistakes follow you, right. The rest of your life. Uh, and so you get to do a lot of things. While at the same time, you ain't paying a whole bunch of bills, right? You might, depending on what your parents are doing, you may make you put car, no gas in your car, car insurance, all right. But you know, most of us aren't responsible for paying your rent and putting all the food on our table and like 18, 19, or you just take, you're taking it out of your, your student loan money. Right. So, which, you know, at our peer, we were fortunate enough. Maybe you can refinance that at two point, whatever percent, the idea of unsecured credit at that low of a percentage. You're not getting that right. You know, at any other point in life. And you're not definitely not getting that at today's rates. So it was a, it was a, it was a good time. It was a good time. Like if we could have gone and no, you know, let me take the student loan money, put this in Google, it's going to become alphabet. You know what I mean? Just man, w with hindsight, there's so much we would have done differently. Um, and I remember wanting to invest in Google at the time, but reading some, some article that was like, that's dumb. Don't do it, man. I think sometimes man, those articles, or it's just right to write. If you feel something, do it, at least you can say I made the mistake. Right. All right. Well, again, man, like we were, I don't know what type of scholarship you had at, um, a law school, but you know, I had a good scholarship in law school also too. Some loan money out for living expenses and, you know, say you just live on ramen and don't know by whatever or, or, you know, eat good. I mean like exactly the arm. I mean, being able to refinance your student loans, I think 2.7, 5%. Right. We just didn't know unsecured credit. Doesn't come at that low of an interest rate. The stuff that we could have done with that. My money isn't that cheap. No. Yeah. Okay. Do you snore? I do have terrible sleep apnea. Um, my wife has been on me. I need to go and get the, um, get the test it so I can get a, C-PAP see that my dad has one. My, I think my grandparents snored, I, I, I feel bad for my parents or from my kids and what's coming down the pipe. Yeah. I probably need to do the same thing bro. Place. You most want to travel? Uh, right now I've got, uh, a friend who runs our kids preschool and she does a program. She spends her time, you know, nine COVID, uh, in Savannah. And she's actually friends with the people who own the gray, uh, which is a restaurant in Savannah, this guidance some pub recently. So Savannah has kind of been on my mind. Um, my wife's family, her father's side goes back to Charleston, so okay. Savannah, Georgia Charleston. South Carolina. Yeah. Charleston, South Carolina. But just getting back and seeing friends and family in LA. No. Okay. Favorite junk food trader Joe's has these chocolate, uh, coconut almonds that are like cinnamon. Okay. Okay. I will try those out. They remind you, uh, they remind you of the world's finest chocolate, uh, almonds, that, that whoever was slaying. Right. But yeah, they're good, bro. What were you gonna say? No, no, no. I'll say that my wife probably right now would definitely appreciate that. So I'm going to go to trader Joe's and get a small gift. She probably hear this afterwards, but two of them bro, two of them so I can have one. Yeah, no, just so you might get a few because if she's pregnant and she wants some, you're going to give them up. Right. Like just take a handful and be like baby, these yours. Okay. All right. Let me, in fact that we'll do that today. Um, favorite childhood TV show? Uh, man. So hard to say. Um, I I've, I've got some great affinity over the Cosby show and I was standing. It means now, but, uh, it was incredible. Um, also love the GI Joe cartoons, man. Okay. All right. Oh, let me throw this at you. I'm a, I'm a man, Craig of the Creek on cartoon network is for me the latch key kids. It is a cartoon. It's one of the best cartoons that I've ever seen done. Okay. And if you're a kid of the eighties who, you know, we were just allowed to wrong, like it'll, it'll hit you. Exactly, man, these kids now I, you know, sometimes I, I, I I'm like, you know, parents will be like, I'm like, yo, I can't really relate because I got to do, man, we got to do three or four times. I mean, you can't watch a kid all the time. Like, well, minor, minor are seven and eight. Uh, Jean will be, uh, uh, seven, I'm sorry, four and seven gene will be eight in April. And um, man, like, I don't know what happened, but we, we, we put these hedges on him, uh, and you don't even realize you're doing it. Yeah. Good friend of mine runs a bookstore in, uh, Oklahoma city now. And admin said that, um, even more than paddling sex, we traffic in fear. That is the number one thing we traffic it. Wow. That is RO that's what I would have van Steven. Think about that. Yeah. As the, um, last Halloween costume, we don't celebrate Halloween. Okay. One of those things of, uh, of, uh, you know, going in to Donald Bell's church, man, and that just had us rethink it. So the last Halloween costume we allowed Ruby, she was maybe two, um, and two or three and we let her be a lamb. And that's one of the things that our kids miss out on every year. And it's hard cause our kids are incredibly cute. So one of the things we thought is, well, maybe we'll let them do like dress up birthday parties and it just hasn't materialized. But yeah, our kids are, um, they don't do Halloween. Yeah. Cause you could do dress up on other days. I have a sugar tooth, like we've got a candy drawer. Like I just told you about my favorite junk food. And then I've got like, like, man, this dude is a candy kind of sore. He could go back to him every time. So Charlotte almonds. Yeah. So our kids are not missing out on candy by any stretch of the mat. So, so Halloween is candy and costumes are now. So over-sexualized particularly for adults, so there's no need for it. Right. Exactly. Cake or pie. Okay. Okay. Uh, do you ever post inspirational posts on social media? No. I'm typically a calling something out that I think needs to be said. Right? Like I've had to stop myself from posting reminders about, um, you know, what happened January six, right. Because it's gotten lost in the consciousness or, you know, Jay Z, um, we're celebrating Jay Z, but he sold out cap and the cause so that he could sell ACE of spades and make a bunch of money on title and get a, uh, and have the weekend saying Coke anthems. Right? Like these are things at the super bowl. This is, this is what he sold out. This is what he kept the, the, the, um, the movement for. But that's the type of things I'll do typically. Would you consider him, uh, did he, would you consider, did he give up power or is he getting power in your opinion, any money he's getting money, he's losing credibility with his original core audience and gaining it with, uh, those who, uh, believe that capitalism and money is important. Okay. So w was he gaining or losing power to you though as an organizer? Do you think he's, he's definitely, I would say gaining power and he's gaining influence. Um, and he's gaining, he's probably gaining power because he has the ability to tap into money in other ways. Right. So, and then let's be honest within our community, uh, the African-American community, there are a lot of people who look up and just laud him for being able to make the, uh, the transition. Um, right. And he, and he's done it on his own terms. Right. I remember a few years back who he had the hat that said retired drug dealer. Right. And that was just like, ha like, no, like almost cursed the pocket. That's not funny, bro. Yeah. As someone who's, um, no had members of the family who have suffered and dealt with addiction, like there's real harm that comes from that at the very least like, can, can you not repent and say, man, I did some awful Louie awfully terrible things to get to where I've gotten to. Um, and uh, I see the error of that and I'm gonna spend my time trying to make right. But you know, every, no nets versus, you know, about those those days. And there seems to be no reformation, uh, or no reform for that. So it's funny that you say that because I think the 30th anniversary of new Jack city was last week and I was listening to the conversation on glove house with all the original actors, producers, and directors and musicians, uh, you know, uh, what's his name? Christopher, Christopher Williams, Christopher Williams, and you know, all of them. Yeah. Mario van Peebles, Chris rock, all right. We're all on this clubhouse chat and remembering the movie and you watch the movie, it was about drugs, you know, drug dealing was in the movie, but those guys were careful to say this isn't the life. These people all die or, you know, yeah. There's a terrible cost to this thing. And you know, that was right before we, you know, that was like 1990, 91, like where they would kind of be able to, uh, uh, show the crack era. And I was just, it was just interesting. It was interesting to hear them think that they had to have a message in as violent and as vile as a movie, you know, people could, uh, portray the movie, but then here's Jay Z ease, ease, ease, saying, look, it doesn't end up like that for everybody look at me. Right. Right. You know, it's funny. Right. Uh, NWA, get I for better or worse. My belief is that of the past 30, 35 years, uh, NWA has the biggest influence on the African-American community. Hmm. You say that, uh, you gonna have to elaborate on that. Unpack that you've got, you've got run DMC saying you cheating on your wife. You know that ain't right. NWA comes back a few years later and says, I ain't the one she swallowed it right. In the narrative shifts, you've got easy. E the drug dealer turned record is Zack mogul where we're now glorifying a gangster lifestyle. And so, um, when that comes out, you know, the message, uh, East coast rap, you know, takes note. And even it's not like drug dealing was new. It was only on the West coast. It was. Yes. But now it's okay to glorify it. Right. Um, and so even though there may be movies like new Jack city that have the message, um, in it that that's not the lifestyle, many of us take, but there's still, there's still money to be made. There are still women to be got in, in that. I, I see NWA as that turning point. Yeah. No, it's interesting that you, you, you would, you know, um, point that out and, you know, I think that, uh, yeah, so I was talking to another artist, uh, well, an artist, um, by the name of reconcile and he he's in rap spaces, inspirational gospel music, gospel, uh, art gospel, rap, gospel, um, visuals. And one of the things he said was like, right now, the number one, listen to artists on YouTube is this cat, um, NBA young boy. Oh yeah. And he says, when you listened to NBA, young boy, like F you know, it's number one, artists. And it's been, he's been the number one artist for awhile. And every three months he drops a project and he says something kind of interesting. He said, man, listen, you gonna think I'm crazy, but he's tapped into a frequency. And I said, man, you know, helped me understand that I'm not a musician though. You know, I don't know what you're talking about, bro. He said, man, now he's tapped into a frequency. And, and you know, when people say they're vibing in the studio, when they, when he's vibing, he catches this frequency. And they said, what kind of frequency that he's like, it's the devil's frequency. And I really didn't. I said, man, that's a, that's, that's a bold statement. Helped me understand. He said, when you listened to the lyrics, he said, people who have an untrained ear, hear it. And think the beat's not that tight, I've heard better beats for way better beats, the lyrics are dead tight. This sucks. And they, and they change it. But people who are tap into the frequency is murder, kill rape violence, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they just, they just vibe, he said, this music now, or, and um, you know, this is coming from, uh, a 30 year old. Right. He's you know, and so he's, he's close to it. And so he said, man, this music now is, uh, it's all about frequency and vibe. You either feel it and think it's amazing, or you don't, because it's not about the logic of the flow or, you know, all of that. That's that's from the generation before where you think, you know, Oh man, you know, this flow is tight. You know, all the lyrics are deep, intense.
Speaker 1:He's like this music is by music. You either get it, man.
Speaker 2:Um, but anyway, I wanted to shift gears to family and calling and uh, want to, I wanted to ask you what, what does, when I say family, what does family mean to you? Well, uh, unfortunate right now. And it immediately goes to Gabrielle and, and our children. And then I think about, you know, spawning off of that. Um, but right now, typically every, I mean, especially in a pandemic where you're being, uh, well, hopefully being careful and cautious. Right. My, I think about them in the decisions that I made. Yeah. No, I think, yeah. It almost in strengths, your idea of family too, and the people in my household and yeah. The household. Exactly. Yeah. Uh, his family, part of the calling that you feel, or is it separate to you? It, it is. Um, and for me, I think about, um, you know, it's part of the calling, that's what you're saying. It is. I think about what God has called me to add, you know, to the role that God has called me to, within my family, um, husband and father, um, what does that mean? What are the responsibilities that come with that? What are the benefits and the blessings that come with that? Right. Uh, and then also when I think about professional calling, how that works to reinforce the calling that I have in my home, I'm very fortunate. I've got, uh, a profession in a job, right. That did not need to be in the office. I didn't need to, uh, you know, put myself in harm's way, uh, which thankful for, um, I had a supervisor and a boss whose thought was, if you can get your job done, do whatever you need to do to get your job done. And I'm, uh, understanding of the things that you have going on at home that affect your ability to get your job done. Right? So there wasn't undue unnecessary pressure and I've really felt during this time, good leadership is become clear and bad leadership has become clear, right? Supervisors who need to have their hands on everything. And, um, no unnecessarily check in with folks, uh, put people through the ringer, um, that's become clear, um, and then fall to recognize, just get the work done, right. The job is still the job. Um, but let me be, uh, supportive of you in, in the things that you have going on to, to, uh, assist you in being able to, to get that job done on your term. Right. It's not on these prescribed her. And, uh, I just mean this has been, the pandemic has been a stress tests yeah. In so many ways. Right. Um, do you, um, in the midst of your, your calling and in the midst of all that you've got going, I mean, how do you, you raised two children and, and what do you do in light of all of that? Um, I, I mean, personally, it's been challenging right? The past few months, it really weighed on me. Um, I dealt with some depression back in 2009, 10, and I told myself that I would never allow myself to go back there again, if it, you know, so much as it depended on me, but I started to feel some creep in. Uh, and so I've been thinking, okay, what do I need to do to address this so that it doesn't, you know, uh, come further right now. I've got a wife and two kids that depend on me and now, which I didn't have back then. Uh, and so I'm very invested in addressing it early on. Whereas back then the idea would be to white, knuckle it, and know to man up or whatever right now as much more, well, let's be vulnerable. And let's figure this out and let's talk with some people who care about you. And you know, my, one of my greatest, uh, I've done this before, so I would say regrets, but also fears. It's taking out my issues on the people around me. Right. I just, I don't want that. I don't want people doing it to me. Right. When you're in deep relationship with people, it happens. It happens. It just does. Right. That's what you signed up for when you sign up to be in relationship with people. But let me not make it a normal practice. You know, let me where I see it happening or understand that it's going to happen. Let me do what I can to, to cut it out, uh, and to do better. So, um, like I said, it's been a challenge, but, uh, you know, it's, I wake up and I go to sleep believing that if God's called you to do something, then it's possible, right. If God's placed you in a situation, right. I, I don't believe God tries to trick us. I don't think God tries to trap us. Right. It may not go the way look the way you expected it to be and go, but it's there it's possible. And so your role is being patient and figuring out what is it that God would have you to do to get there, right. And again, or is, is it even, are you focused on the wrong there? Yeah, man, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, that's just kind of where I land on it, right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you feel the tension sometimes of having to balance, or have you felt in the past having to balance, what do you feel led to do all to do and, uh, your professional life and work in general and being present and leading your family, do you ever felt that tension in the past? I have. Um, I have, and, and in my mind, you know, the, the father or husband provide a role was okay, I need y'all and you to allow me to do this, because ultimately this, this innumerous back to the home. Right, right. But if you ain't got no home, cause you don't push everybody away. Right. Let's focus in, that's kind of what, getting back to what I was saying about, uh, what God's called you to do, right. God ain't called me to be a fundraiser, right? Like this will be your job. Right. God, I believe it's called me to be a husband and a father and the fundraiser assistant Dean at the uni at the Oklahoma city university, school of law works for that. When, when it doesn't work for that, then I got to find a new role. Yeah. And that's been the shift for me over the past. I don't know, however many years. Um, so do you think that has, that has influenced your decision to look at calling for you as seasons seems like when a season is in it's in and when a season is up for you, it's again, I try not to be too attached to the stuff that I shouldn't be attached to. Right. I need to be attached to Gabrielle. I need to be attached to these kids to the point until they leave and cleave. Right. And that's it, you know? Um, and then there are other things that I'm attached to, but if those attachments are in conflict with my Gabrielle and kids' attachments and, you know, focusing on your priorities, right. They can be good things, but you can't no, even your child, you're going to love that child, but it can't get in between you and Erica. Right. That's just, it is, it is what it is. That's the game love. Now, let me ask you, when you see it, just pop in mind when you see these guys and women who sacrifice everything to be, uh, may see the calling and CEO as this, as that. I mean, I don't know. I just want to know your, your thought behind. Is there room for that too? Or is there something wrong? I don't know. I'm always just, there's definitely room conflicted. There there's definitely room for it, but I also think you've got to do it on your terms. Right. And when you've not made those terms clear early on, people, people will take advantage of that. Right. Okay. All right. So I was approached about a position a few months back, right. Looked at the organization, looked at their, the people they had in leadership, um, looked at their board, had a list of question, right? One of them was, I noticed that you all don't have any or many minorities on your board. Uh, and I don't see any African-Americans. Uh, and I also don't see any African-American men within leadership of the organization or on your board. Right. So I want to talk with you. I, one of the things I'll be curious about is your, you know, your efforts on diversity, equity and inclusion. Right. I didn't hear anything back. They did not move forward with my candidacy, a little salty. Right. But ultimately those are my terms. I need to know how much, how important this is to you. All right. Now upfront, because again talks about my, my education, my childhood, right. I got a great childhood, but you know, a great education at Booker T Washington, but I was one of a handful of black kids in the AP and IB program. Yeah. Um, I don't need or desire to be the model minority in, you know, in my forties, particularly when we're talking about, uh, an organization that's located in a top 20 top 10 metropolitan area. Right. Um, so those are my terms and I'm comfortable with that. Does it mean that I may not get to get to certain opportunities and that's fine. What I'm thankful for, with what I have, you know, currently having my, again, got a phenomenal, uh, boss, um, phenomenal colleagues. We are a private law school, uh, in Oklahoma that three of our seventeens are black. And so you get recruited by a black woman, you matriculate, uh, through law school. Another black woman is the Dean of that. You become an alumnus alumna and, uh, want to be engaged. There's a black man that oversees that. Right. So, and that's an Oklahoma Homer, right? Yeah. I'm not regressing. Particularly if I go into another place, uh, go to another metropolitan area or another city that is supposedly more diverse than where I come from. Right. So those are my terms. Now here's the problem, um, where you don't state that upfront. Right. It's hard to address it on the backend. Right. So, um, again, when I, if I have conversations, my family's important to me, right? There are certain things that I'm going to be looking for with regard to structure, how, how bolts are managed is important to me, how folks are treated. I believe that no matter who you are, what you look like, where you come from, what's your sexual orientation preference. Gender is you have a fundamental human dignity that deserves to be respected, right? If an organization doesn't agree with that, then we don't need your, your values and my values don't align. Right? Yeah. And so those, again, these are my terms, I think you can become CEO or Dean or president or whatever. Right. But you gotta be clear about your terms and what you're willing to sacrifice and what you're not willing to sacrifice. And I think a lot of folks who, um, get to these high level positions, but their home life is terrible. We're not clear about their terms or they just weren't clear about their priorities. Hey man, that's that right there. I like to have this. That is its own discussion that I kind of talked through because I mean, I know I've, I, you know, we all struggle with it to various extents. And I do think man, you know, uh, as, as black men and as black women who are part of the minority, this, that is a struggle is climb being the end, all be all. Or man is there, are there some four principles and core things we should, we should have and to hold and, and say, even if I don't, you know, ascend to the, to, to, to that, to the mountain tops, I'm still good. Cause I'm still me. But man, that's another, I, well, that's something I want to get to, I'll throw another one at you again. Uh, me having learned under Donald, uh, as long as I did you go back to Genesis and you know, Eve is called to be a helpmate. Yeah. And far too many of us as men have said, okay, my role is to be a provider. Um, you know, um, bring in the resources is money. Well that, but also let me see the home and the running of that over to my E. But you know, I'm not in, I'm not talking about, okay, this is it's to be my program. This is to me how I see it. But no, this is a partnership. This is, uh, you know, Eve as the help mate. So Y right, Christian male, who wants to run a company, are you leaving the household to be totally run by your wife, which is a company, right. Which is a company and have no authority have no idea what your kids are dealing with, what's going on at home. But you're, but you're, you're saying you're professing Christian principle, right? Th th that, that the, the intelligence of the wisdom of that eludes me. Oh, I hit it. Um, okay. Last two questions. And then I'm going to let you go Colin and joins flow. What do you think is missing in the conversation regarding, um, George Floyd and the situations that have occurred around it? And after, after his passing them would be clear. So reading the Washington post reading a headline today, a little quote underneath, it talks about how a black Democrat is worried about her sons or her, his son's safety. Whereas the white Republicans are concerned about the burdens of, uh, the police. And that was how they spun it. Right. But I think that's somewhat accurate, right? So this idea of safety, wellbeing, life livelihood, life versus bird. Yeah. Think about safety. Can I, can I live versus what's placed upon me as I live. Yeah. The fact that, and, uh, I've had numerous discussions with our friend Donald about this, the idea that, uh, there are a group, there is a profession that typically can retire at 50 or 55, whatever they just, with a pension, um, that has given the ability to make split second decisions that can result in loss of life and are given the benefit of the doubt of those decisions. Right. Um, yet have not been given an increased level of accountability is problematic. So we need to look structurally or systematically. If that that's what I don't believe is happening enough. Um, the idea that someone can say I was in fear of my life, or, uh, and so I decided to neutralize a threat when you're in a job that's inherently dangerous. Right, right. Uh, those are part of the risks of the job. Now, in order to do that again, we provide both the ability to retire at an earlier age with full pension. And I don't have any problems with that, but there's, something's got to give at some point, right. Um, because you can't have it all and have it every which way. Right. So we need to, um, increase the level of training. Right. We need to, or we need to increase the level of consequences, or something's got to give for police again, to be given. This aid is incredibly high. I mean, the ability is a whole life in your hand. Right. But then to say, well, I was in fear of my life, right. The reason that we can't, or that is so hard to convict a police officer is because, right. We've got to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt, but yet they are already given the benefit of the doubt. Right. Police officer shoots someone. Well, we automatically think that person must have been committing a crime. Right. But then we've got, I mean, the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Well, how do you do that? When you've already said placed in people's minds, right. Through our culture that, um, they, they, this is what police officers do, right. This is what they should, they should neutralize the threat. Right. So it it's, we've got to, we got to make some real systemic changes around what's going on with policing and as that's good stuff, uh, let, let me, let me also, because this is Donald's point, you're not able to be here with us. Right. But he says, um, and I think it's a valid point when we say that a police officer is allowed to shoot an unarmed person. Right. And not be convicted. Now they have usurped, not just the life and the rights of the person that was, that was killed. We've used, served the constitution, right? Because the constitution says that you get the right to a jury trial, right. If I'm dead, I no longer get the right to the jury trial. Now, of course, if that person poses an imminent threat, right. Well, there may be reason to neutralize the threat, particularly in my mind, if they pose a threat to other people civilians, right. Who don't have the ability like police officers to go and, and to we'll make life or death decisions and get the benefit of the doubt and who are not trained. Right. So if you need to save, um, to, to neutralize the threat, so this, this person does not kill an innocent bystander. I can understand that, but to say my life was in jeopardy. So I needed to neutralize the threat. Well, again, yes, everybody wants to make it home, you know, alive, but should that be a reasonable request or an assumption in such an inherently dangerous position when that's one of the risks of the position again. And I think you're right, because the stunt guy ain't don't change the risk because I mean, they may pay him more because he's, uh, uh, you know, a stunt double whatnot, but the job is a job. If you're going to do it, it comes with what it comes with. Now, if you say, man, I need more pay. I need a better pension, which is what they do for police officers. Because if you retiring at 50 and 55, you're doing pretty good. Yeah. We're, you're, we're about 14 years away, right. Or nine or 14. No. Right. Working. Yeah. But that's not happening. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but Steve, Stephen G. Butler, thank you so much for, um, your time, uh, your energy, your talent, bro. You really should write this up, do something. Well, you know what I mean? That was why me, you and Donald was bringing us together. We needed to write that article. And maybe, maybe that comes out of the conversation. Right. Let's do it For sure, man. Thank you. Stephen G. Butler foot, man of your time, your talent, your treasure. And man, I hope this conversation
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